Grouper limit???

[Chumlord]

Recently I have seen pictures of people holding up "their" first and second Grouper caught in one day or "their" pair of Wreckfish they caught on the same day.

I was looking at the regs regarding Groupers and the wording seems a bit more restrictive than simply a "possession" limit.

From the VMRC site:
The recreational harvest, landing and possession limit for grouper, as described in 4VAC20-1120-20, shall be one fish. It shall be unlawful for any person to recreationally harvest, land or possess more than one grouper within or without Virginia tidal waters. When fishing from any boat or vessel where the entire catch is held in a common hold or container, the possession limit for grouper shall be for the boat or vessel and shall be equal to the number of persons on board legally eligible to fish multiplied by one. The captain or operator of the boat or vessel shall be responsible for any boat or vessel possession limits.

Notice the "harvest, land or possess" wording. ???

Confusing when coupled with the boat limit wording??? This wording also appears regarding Tiles and Sheepshead.

Anyone???

[Tom Powers]

That is pretty much standard wording. If you release a fish promptly after catching it then you are not in possession.

If you are fishing on a boat (WHERE THE FISH ARE HELD IN COMMON) then it is no longer a PERSONAL possession limit rather it is a vessel limit. For example with 6 people who are eligible to fish and the limit is one per person: one person can catch and retain 6 fish, 6 people can catch and catch and retain 1 fish each, 3 people can catch and retain 2 fish each, etc.

Now if you were on a head boat where everybody had their own cooler then the fish are no longer held in common and the individual limits apply. Where it might get goofy is when two or three people are sharing a cooler on a head boat.

Now there are ethics issues regarding the survivability of fish caught in 500 feet of water even if they are promptly released.

[Mike Avery]

I believe the intent is to discourage catch and release beyond a boat's limit. This makes sense since I'm pretty sure they would not survive the trip back down. I have seen other boats trying to revive (read cull) a small wreckfish I'm guessing so they could keep fishing. I think that specific wording (harvest, landing and possession) is there to try to discourage this type of thing. Note sure why sheephead is the same though.

I know when Capt Pete arranged the grouper trip aboard the Rudee Angler, several anglers caught and took home more than 1 grouper while some anglers took home none. From the Captain's perspective, they are still legal.

[Chumlord]

I don't feel the wording is standard as it does not appear in the majority of the other species available to us VA anglers, as far as the "common hold" issue goes how does that apply if you claim the fish or fishes as "yours" by perhaps marking them with a colored zip tie even they are in the same cooler??? Personally I feel if you distinguish a specific fish as "yours" then to me it is no longer in a "common hold" even if the hold is one cooler because in reality it has been separated from the other fish by being "yours".

[Tom Powers]

I will look into it some but some basic definitions.

Harvest means to keep the fish.

Possess means to put it into a cooler or fish box.

Land means to take off of a vessel either in whole or fillets.

In fisheries jargon fish returned to the water alive or dead are not harvested. They are bycatch mortality if they are returned dead.

[Chumlord]

Thanks Tom let us know what you find out. I found the wording of the regs for Tiles, Grouper and Sheepshead interesting. I kind of felt that since limits for Sheeps, Tiles and Grouper have been relatively recently added this wording may be new???

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

Since this post is directed towards my reports and Capt. Skip Feller's reports, I will take the first attempt at explaining "how it works". Perhaps Capt. Skip will chime in later.

When we are in federal waters 70 miles offshore NO STATE has authority. When we LAND the fish in a particular state, then the state regulations take over.

For example, if I were to choose to LAND my fish in MD I could land as many Tiles, Groupers, and Wreckfish I choose to LAND, because they do not have any regulations on the subject. This is the way VA used to be. Or, for another example if I choose to LAND my Groupers in NC, then i can retain 4 per angler posession limit.

Now that this should be clear I would like to address another issue. What is your point of bringing something like this up? I have done my best to comply with the VA regulations, despite their absurdity and lack of scientific basis. I have lost a ton of business due to the new Tile, Wreckfish. and Grouper regulations. Exactly what would ypou propose - "ZERO" fish per person? That would fix it right? Because right now it's 1 Grouper or Wreckfish and somehow that is too many? As I asked at the meetings on this subject with the morons at VMRC - can you provide any VIRGINIA data supporting these regulations? They could not and cannot. Can you?

Meanwhile NC gets 4 and MD gets as many as they want. Do you think that we should be put completely out of business? The other point I would like to make is that when people come out fishing with me and they get scared and sick 1 hour into an 18 hour trip and lay in the fetal position for the next 17 hours, they are somehow not entitled to take home a fish if one of the other anglers catches it for them? Sometimes, the only satisfaction they get on their $220.00 butt whoopin' is the "hey at least I got to take home a fish".

I really wish that you and others would think a little bit before you post up like this. This really gets my blood boiling.

Gettin' off my soapbox now...

[Capt. Pete Bregant]

:thumbup::clapping2::clap:

[triple3b]

stir the pot

[striper_on]

:popcorn::beergood::popcorn:

[baitman]

I love it. No wonder the recreational fishermen cannot get anything done around here like address the flounder regs or how we went to all the trouble of putting the tilefish and grouper limits on VA and you can go into MD with no limits.

There is always some guy jealous, selfish or so darn conservative that he thinks he can put his beliefs on the rest of us through regulation.

How about this:

I wonder how much more fishing mortality we have now across the board due to seminars, blogs and websites? So people can feed their egos and line their pockets with free stuff and endorsements. The nerve of a guy to claim commercial fishermen are greedy when the same people make money off of videos and endorsements. What happened to doing your homework, scouting and learning on your own?

The real fishermen have left this site due to these problems and we know who they are. They fish for the thrill and fun. Occasionally someone will post their pic here but by and large they have moved on due to the egos, personalities and infighting.

I agree with conservation but, one grouper? Two would have been a little more fair and not hurt the resource. And if one guy catches 4 on Jim or Skipper's boat and three guys catch none then they ought to be able to take three of his.

Good luck Captains and the rest of you egos.

[Chumlord]

My point was, without mentioning any names or boats names mind you was simply to alert fellow anglers of potential problems that could occur (fines, citations, etc. etc.) from pictures being posted on the internet, not unlike what is going on in Florida where it is illegal to remove a Tarpon from the water and Fish and Wildlife officials have been reported handing out fines using the pictures off the internet from message boards like TF as evidence of wrong doing. Furthermore my inquiry was substantiated (to me anyway) by slightly different wording it the regs for certain species of fish, one being Grouper. What is my point you ask??? It is simply information, information I thought anglers (recs and coms alike) should be aware of and might like to know about. I wish people would think a little before they post pics of people holding up the two Grouper they caught in one day.

If there is any wrong doing going on... I guess the old saying applies "if the shoe fits wear it".

Lighten up!!!

[Mega Bite]

I do not think C&R Grouper from 600 ft works well. Even with the venting tool their eyes and rectum are still blown out .Its hard to bring any living organism up from 19 atmospheres without rupturing every blood vessel in its body.Do you really expect it to live much less make it back down to their lair while swimming dazed through a gauntlet of sharks and other predators.I would rather see someone keep every fish than release one.One way wastes good fish the other does not.C & R Grouper is a JOKE.

[lmontagnaj]

I do not think C&R Grouper from 600 ft works well. Even with the venting tool their eyes and rectum are still blown out .Its hard to bring any living organism up from 19 atmospheres without rupturing every blood vessel in its body.Do you really expect it to live much less make it back down to their lair while swimming dazed through a gauntlet of sharks and other predators.I would rather see someone keep every fish than release one.One way wastes good fish the other does not.C & R Grouper is a JOKE.

Well Said!!!

When I first starting extreme deep dropping a couple of years ago, we caught some wreckfish and managed one above our limit. It's eyes were blown out as well as just about everything else. I tried venting the fish and although it went back down it had ZERO chance of survival. I wish I had just kept it and took a chance at the dock.

We now fish single hook rigs when in areas looking for grouper and wreckfish to 1. help prevent having too many and 2. give each angler a chance at getting their own fish.

I don't think it's fair to call anyone out here unless you are on the boat and know for fact they are keeping more than the allowed limit per angler per boat.

Sometimes another angler gets another persons limit. Example tuna fishing 3 per person or sea bass 25 per person, it's not always the same angler who catches the limit, often others help make the count. I've had numerous occasions where one person lands 2 tunas and another lands 4.

[surferbill]

Lou,
It always amazes me that a simple question asked about fishing regulations on Tidal Fish will get negative responses from some anglers.

It's one of the reasons I rarely ask any questions on TF. It's not worth the agravation.

[tcannonsr]

What he asked could have been answered with a phone call instead of a posting. Tom, thanks for the intelligent reply.

[Chumlord]

tcannon:
It would have been difficult to alert a significant portion of TF's 51,000 plus members on my cell. My wife would have killed me when she saw the bill!!! I guess if I was interested in only finding out for myself while others potentially get hassled for posting pictures of the 5th Sheepshead they caught in one one day the phone call deal would have been the correct route to take. But look at it this way; now even you know it may not be a good idea to post a picture of yourself showing off the 8th Tilefish you catch on your next trip to the Canyon.

[Chumlord]

Good idea the single hook rig Lucian!!! I like that!!! Additionally I have been in the same position as you describe Lucian regarding Tuna and Sea Bass but the fish were in fact kept in a common hold and split up evenly among all anglers onboard. I'm fairly certain the majority of anglers (at least the ones I know) do the same thing, split up the fish/meat evenly.

[saltyfishn]

my 2 cents hurry up and go get them cause it really will not be long and there will not be any or you will not be allowed to catch them just look at the pics from the last few months and lou you are right the higher powers are looking and there cheating on there homework using TF

[tcannonsr]

Lou, you do not need to contact 51,00 unless you found out it was illegal. I find it amazing that as long as you have been fishing, you did not know how to figure a limit on a boat. But, as I said, a phone call could have cleared it up. By the way, I would have no problem showing my 15th tile, if we were under the limit for the boat.

[Chumlord]

Suit yourself.

[sugar bear]

I keep hearing about catch limit. Please tell me something about the possession limit. Where does the possession limit stop at? Does it stop at the dock? Can another angler give you his limit in the parking lot and you leave with over the limit. I have been told that the possession limit can be enforced at any time. Even on your way home.

[Mike Avery]

I thought the question was legit and worthy of civil debate. I don't know why folks need to get all emtional to debate something on tidalfish. We should be able to debate any topic on tidalfish as long as we do it like adults. But on the subject of boat limits, as long as the boat is legal, who cares whether or each angler caught over individual limits and who cares how many fillets each angler goes home with as long as the boat limit is within the law. My wife doesn't like deep dropping so she will often let someone else crank in her fish. Many times, I don't care about cranking so I'll let someone else crank my limit, whether is deep dropping or striped bass as long as we don't keep over our boat limit that is the most important thing. 2 striped bass per person so if I have 5 on board our boat can keep 10 fish. If I don't care about cranking my 2 fish and I let others crank 3 or 4 want difference does that make. Same thing on groupers. If my wife doesn't want to crank up a grouper or wreckfish from 600 feet, that's her choice but we can still bring home 1 grouper/wreckfish per person. And when we get back to the docks with our legal boat limit, I say to the crew that it's all to be divided up equally but at times somebody doesn't want to bring home that much fish so they give some fillets to the next guy. I'm talking about fillets since we clean the fish at my docks so if some VMRC officer wants to stop one of us and try to calculate if our fillets are over an individual's limit...they they can go ahead but I seriously doubt that VMRC is interested in this kind of enforcement. As long as my boat limit is legal, I'm pretty confident that is all they care about and they really don't give a rat that any single person drove home with more than this his individual limit.

[sugar bear]

Maybe I didn't asked the question correctly. Where does the possession limit stop at? Not someones don't give a rat opinion. Please keep it civil.

[Mike Avery]

[QUOTE=sugar bear;1306634]Where does the possession limit stop at? /QUOTE]

When the fish cleaned at the fish cleaning station.

[Chumlord]

I actually do not know where (legally speaking) the possession limit stops. I would believe that at any time you were in possession of more that the allowable limit of any species of fish whether it be the whole fish or parts of a fish, for example if you had eight whole fillets of rockfish in your cooler and on the way home you got checked perhaps that may even be a violation, certainly 4 whole rockfish would be illegal.

At any rate I like your get to the point attitude sugar bear!!! F'ing sweet!!!

[sugar bear]

I am not sure what your reply meant but thanks. Now go back to my original question. If you have over the possession limit in your possession and leave the dock are you legal. I have been told that if a VMRC inspector checks you that you are in violation and subject to a citation.

[sugar bear]

Chumlord thanks for the reply. Thats the way that I see it. I was posting a reply when you were.

[Ketchup]

Has ANYONE on this thread EVER been checked for fish possesssion after you leave the ramp and/or dock??? This would mean either getting pulled over on the highway by VMRC/USCG, or a State Trooper who is adamant about your catch. ANYONE?

You guys need to go fishing, I think the possession limit stops when you poop it out, and it can no longer be identified as fish, unless of course, an official is in your bathroom with the proper lab equipment. Then yes, you may be screwed

[saltyfishn]

yes by a Carolina marine officer half way between OI an HI due to the fact we had four coolers in the back of the truck