Catch and Release Fishing has been banned...

[Fishamajig]

Catch and Release Fishing has been banned in Switzerland according to the May 2009 edition of Salt Water Sportsman. "The bizarre prohibition became a law this year and the use of live bait and and barbed hooks has also been banned in most instances."

This law was fought unsuccessfully by the Swiss Angling Federation and the Europoean Fishing Tackle Association.

This law was in response to animal rights groups who compalined about the suffering that fish supposedly endured while being caught and released.

Now before you start saying that this will never happen in America, think twice, it can happen here. PETA has already ramped up their campaign and are fueled by an army of yound idealists who want to push their vegan agenda as far as they can.

This very issue has twice come from the Maryland DNR who have directly referenced this activity and their "concern" about the practice in recent weeks. Some of the opponents are fellow anglers, commercial fisherman and charter boat captains. Their motives could be everything from jealousy, greed or some other factor.

I think that we should all think twice before being "so public" about our C & R activities, especially prior to the spring trophy season. We saw the bickering here amongst the TidalFish community for the last couple of weeks, who knows what the lurkers are saying to our regulators. This board is an amazing exchange of information. I would bet lurkers outnumber posters by a factor of ten.

I have long been an advocate of C & R and do so with well over 90% of my fish. For pickeral, largemouth, smallmouth, catfish, carp that number is 100%. I would hate to lose that right.

Just my .02 cents worth.

[B-Faithful]

C&R has always worked for sustainability and always will...

Putting back opening day one week in one year would reduce the amount of stripers killed more than ending C&R for a decade...

[27 sailfish]

Last time I checked - catch and release was not a crime.

[Jonah]

Last time I checked - catch and release was not a crime.


C & R Trolling should be.

[B-Faithful]

C & R Trolling should be.

Based on what factual scientific study?

C&R has always worked for sustainability and there are a lot of examples to point to.

This issue is a result of an industry grasping at straws..

[crabby and son]

C & R Trolling should be.

should bees don't make honey:D..............Gary

[heimdall]

Based on what factual scientific study?

C&R has always worked and there is a lot of examples to point to.

This is an industry grasping at straws..

What factual scientific study says that C&R trolling is not harmful to Striped Bass??

[gooddog]

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[reeltor]

I'd advise all rec fisherman to let these arguments die without response. Now is not the time.

[Shawn Kimbro]

Paul's right, better to stick together right now. We aren't too far away from that.

[RhoKen]

I'd advise all rec fisherman to let these arguments die without response. Now is not the time.

I disagree. If you let an extremist plant a flag in your lawn, you will awake tomorrow to discover the flag is now sunk into concrete.

[BayBum]

I still challenge anyone to explain the "sport" in C&R trolling.
You drag lines...one hooks up...you drag it in, let it flop around, take pictures for a web site, then throw it back, hoping it swims away. Where's the sport?

You're not "outsmarting" the fish...it's not man against fish....there's no challenge there.
Take a spinner and an ultra-lite, work on some perch, That's sport.
Jigging for rock is sport. Even bottom fishing with bloodworms is more sport than C&R trolling.

[Doggydaddy]

I still challenge anyone to explain the "sport" in C&R trolling.
You drag lines...one hooks up...you drag it in, let it flop around, take pictures for a web site, then throw it back, hoping it swims away. Where's the sport?

You're not "outsmarting" the fish...it's not man against fish....there's no challenge there.
Take a spinner and an ultra-lite, work on some perch, That's sport.
Jigging for rock is sport. Even bottom fishing with bloodworms is more sport than C&R trolling.

I don't believe anyone on this board is telling you how to have fun fishing, don't worry about those of us who troll C&R.

[B-Faithful]

To each their own on what method of fishing they enjoy but catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

[troutfishin]

Baybum,
Your definition of sporting is yours, not every fishermans'. I derive great enjoyment from trolling. LTJ for perch is sporting to me also but I'd rather be trolling for rockfish. Just because you would rather do something else doesn't mean everyone should. I know a lot of people that would say any type of fishing is boring, non-sporting and a waste of time.

[Fishamajig]

Quote ZAM:

"Some of the CCA reps have claimed in the past that fishing is not a right. but I think it is, the same right people who decide they want to keep fish, and the same right that people that choose to buy their fish..The way so many want to use this forum to try to get people against watermen, or trollers, or people that keep fish,ect...it could come back to bite them too, if one day some people have their way and watermen are banned, then the fishing community is that must weaker, then other orgs may try to stop trollers or other types of fishing, then when we are nice and weak, orgs like peta or other groups can stop C&R...so just remember, people in glass houses should never throw stones
People that C&R are no better then anyone else "

I read your response a couple of times. I am not sure of what you are saying.

Please clarify.

[blue lou]

I still challenge anyone to explain the "sport" in C&R trolling.
You drag lines...one hooks up...you drag it in, let it flop around, take pictures for a web site, then throw it back, hoping it swims away. Where's the sport?

You're not "outsmarting" the fish...it's not man against fish....there's no challenge there.
Take a spinner and an ultra-lite, work on some perch, That's sport.
Jigging for rock is sport. Even bottom fishing with bloodworms is more sport than C&R trolling.

Outsmarting the dumbest thing with fins, That's precious.
:hysterical::roflguy::hysterical:

[B-Faithful]

To each their own on what method of fishing they enjoy...

If declining population numbers are a concern, DNR needs to look at when the season opens, other creel limits, etc. but catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

[BayBum]

Any logical thinking person knows the difference between fishing for the sport of it, and fishing solely for productivity and bragging rights. And the two can co-exist. When I fish, I like to bring some home to eat. and take lots of pictures (productivity).
I also like to have fun trying to catch fish (sport).

But C&R trolling fits neither category. (with the exception of taking pictures)
I've got nothing against trolling. I do it myself and am quite productive.

And you all are correct...these are my opinions and I don't expect everyone to agree...but this IS a forum where we communicate ideas related to fishing.

[Captbuckster]

I'd advise all rec fisherman to let these arguments die without response. Now is not the time.

why?

[Captbuckster]

Any logical thinking person knows the difference between fishing for the sport of it, and fishing solely for productivity and bragging rights. And the two can co-exist. When I fish, I like to bring some home to eat. and take lots of pictures (productivity).
I also like to have fun trying to catch fish (sport).

But C&R trolling fits neither category. (with the exception of taking pictures)
I've got nothing against trolling. I do it myself and am quite productive.

And you all are correct...these are my opinions and I don't expect everyone to agree...but this IS a forum where we communicate ideas related to fishing.

only popular ideas!!!! use that stinger so u dont miss that fish, or else you might not achieve your internet "fame"

[B-Faithful]

Baybum, If trolling was so easy and not sporting then why did so many people get skunked on opening day fishing this way? (there was a long thread about this initiated by one of the more knowledgeable fisherman in the country)

Trolling poses many challenges and I thoroughly enjoy the team aspect of it when trolling a spread. We have the guy operating the boat, guys setting and maintain the spread, clearing lines, leaderman, reelman, working to find the bait and the bite, etc. Fishing this method is much more of team sport. You are comparing golf to basketball saying that basketball isnt sporting because you know you are going to score when the reality is you still have to make a basket and that does take some skill that not all can do that as well as others.

[joe117]

If you want to C&R in the trophy season....fine.
But C&R before the trophy season has got to be doing more damage to fish than not fishing before the trophy season.

Of course....when I hear about people netting up tons of illegal rockfish and laughing when they pay the $500 fine, it's hard to get worked up about C&R.

[Captbuckster]

I still challenge anyone to explain the "sport" in C&R trolling.
You drag lines...one hooks up...you drag it in, let it flop around, take pictures for a web site, then throw it back, hoping it swims away. Where's the sport?

You're not "outsmarting" the fish...it's not man against fish....there's no challenge there.
Take a spinner and an ultra-lite, work on some perch, That's sport.
Jigging for rock is sport. Even bottom fishing with bloodworms is more sport than C&R trolling.

I agree. there is no sport in trolling/ c&r trolling for rockfish in trophy season. no real fight, few head shakes, you got this fish on heavy line and basically a winch, no other excitment other than bzzzzzzz. drag fish through water on a broom stick. joyous!!! but you gotta remember, most these guys, with the exception of a few(kimbro, fishamajig, flounder guy) only know what skip tells them. they couldnt appreciate the nuance of picking up a perch with beetle spin on light tackle. this board is monkey see, monkey do IMO. in a few weeks, it will all be live lining.

[Captbuckster]

Baybum, If trolling was so easy and not sporting then why did so many people get skunked on opening day fishing this way? (there was a long thread about this initiated by one of the more knowledgeable fisherman in the country)

Trolling poses many challenges and I throughly enjoy the team aspect of it when trolling a spread. We have the guy operating the boat, guys setting and maintain the spread, clearing lines, leaderman, reelman, working to find the bait and the bite, etc. Fishing this method is much more of team sport. You are comparing golf to basketball saying that basketball isnt sporting because you know you are going to score when the reality is you still have to make a basket and that does take some skill that not all can do that as well as others.

monkey see, monkey do, no thinking outside the box. I got mine in much shallower water.

[Captbuckster]

If you want to C&R in the trophy season....fine.
But C&R before the trophy season has got to be doing more damage to fish than not fishing before the trophy season.
Of course....when I hear about people netting up tons of illegal rockfish and laughing when they pay the $500 fine, it's hard to get worked up about C&R.

please dont bring common sense into the conversation. Bfaithful will be asking for scientific proof in a few seconds. remember, they's owed them C&R fish!

[B-Faithful]

I landed 11 fish before 11am with much of the action away from the crowds via trolling.. see you are not so special

[Captbuckster]

I landed 11 fish before 11am with much of the action away from the crowds via trolling.. see you are not so special

I trolled 4 rods, how about you?

[B-Faithful]

I trolled a max of 12 (pulled 11 much of the morning) with 4 guys.. how about you? (silly tit for tat but you are entertaining)

[B-Faithful]

please dont bring common sense into the conversation. Bfaithful will be asking for scientific proof in a few seconds. remember, they's owed them C&R fish!

Right, lets leave science out and just base everything on bucksters emotions.

[hollywood9s]

You guys are missing the point here, which is the attack that our country and our outdoor pastimes are under. It is not only happening with fishing, but with hunting and surf drving/fishing too. These groups that are pursuing these actions are well organized, well financed, and politically connected.
Look at what they have done to the Outer Banks in NC, all in the name of a bird and bad science.
Our hunting and fishing heritage are under attack from extremists who worship these creatures, believe that man and beast are on the same level, and wish to abolish all of it.
Wake up, if we don't stand together to fight these lunatics they will continually gain ground, and our children and grandchildren will never know the feeling of catching their first big striper, or taking their first deer.
For those who vote for politicians that support this nonsense, you are part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

[rhahn427]

:jackthread::jackthread::jackthread::jackthread:

[Shawn Kimbro]

While I agree that one man = one rod is as sporting as it gets, I'm not sure I trust the powers to only regulate trolling. From what I heard last weekend, we may lose catch and release fishing by any method YEAR ROUND. I never would've believed it, it's surreal, but I heard it from sources within DNR and at the highest levels of some of the sports fishing organizations. Why give up anything when we've got so much illegal activity going on? How many more fish were killed opening day than the entire preseason? How many fish does the charter fleet kill in one day? You guys know I'm no fan of trolling and I'm all about light tackle fishing, conservation, and perserving stripers as the gamefish they are. I also think some regulations on preseason fishing might be a good idea, but making Maryland a meat state? Come On!

[Turd Ferguson]

YESS!! well said hollywood, There is a much larger issue at hand

[B-Faithful]

:yes:

To each their own on what method of fishing they enjoy...

If declining population numbers are a concern, DNR needs to look at when the season opens, other creel limits, etc. but catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

[BayBum]

I disagree with...and would highly doubt they would ban ALL C&R.
C&R protects species when done properly.
Just think of all the farm ponds that would be empty if not for C&R.
I bet most of us taught our kids the first time at a pond. We let the little bluegill go and said "we'll catch him next year when he's bigger".
Or we threw back a nice keeper as a reward and appreciation for the fight he just put up.

No, I sure hope ALL C&R is not banned. I'll be the first in line fighting that.

[goose70]

YESS!! well said hollywood, There is a much larger issue at hand


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Look, what Switzerland did is stupid, I'm a big believer in C&R as a management tool in most circumstances, and have no problem with a regulated catch & keep fishery for most species, but your trying to turn this into a "black helicopter" issue only makes recreational anglers look like crazy, paranoid rednecks. In other words, it makes our views easy for the larger public to dismiss. Stick to the issue and fight extremism with science. Much more often than not, it works.

[hollywood9s]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Look, what Switzerland did is stupid, I'm a big believer in C&R as a management tool in most circumstances, and have no problem with a regulated catch & keep fishery for most species, but your trying to turn this into a "black helicopter" issue only makes recreational anglers look like crazy, paranoid rednecks. In other words, it makes our views easy for the larger public to dismiss. Stick to the issue and fight extremism with science. Much more often than not, it works.

If your response was directed towards me , you may want to educate yourself a bit better.
This isn't a "black helicoptor" issue, it is more of a personal liberty issue.
It is a FACT that these animal rights and environmental groups wish to see an end to hunting and fishing, that is their END GOAL!! It is also a FACT that they will continue their fight until they have accomplished their agendas.
It is also a FACT they these groups are organized, well funded, and very political.
It is the complacent attitude like yours that has caused the gradual loss of much of our heritage and personal freedoms.

I agree with fighting their agendas with science, the downside is that they can and have used misleading science against us with success, once again the Outer Banks fiasco is a perfect example.
While we are on here bickering about C&R they use will seek to use it as a divide and conquer tactic against us, and it works. If the science shows that C&R is having a detrimental effect on the Striper fishery, than some regulations may be needed, but thus far i've only seen "holier than thou" reasons against pre-season C&R.
If it isn't harming the striper population than live and let live.

[BayBum]

Well here's an un-deniable fact....

You kill less keeper rockfish when you don't C&R troll than if you do.
And I believe that more fish die by C&R trolling than any other C&R methods.

[hard_head]

OK. So C&R is banned in Switzerland.
Is this for all fish?
Do they have size limits there?
If so, what do you do when you catch an undersized fish? If you let it go, that is C&R, if you keep it, you violated the size limit.

[B-Faithful]

Well here's an un-deniable fact....

You kill less keeper rockfish when you don't C&R troll than if you do.
And I believe that more fish die by C&R trolling than any other C&R methods.

Here is anotther un-deniable fact. You kill many many-times more fish when you keep them then you do releasing them:yes:

If declining population numbers are a concern, DNR needs to look at when the season opens, other creel limits, etc. but catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

The others are just your beliefs based on nothing... Does dragging a fish at about 2mph faster than you would using another method kill more fish :confused: Methods are irrelivant.

I guess I should have kept rather than released all the very green fish I caught with roe in them :wacko: We tried to only keep slim fish



.

[BayBum]

Now the thread really digresses.....
Re-read my posts and try to comprehend my position.

My positions are clear...

Have a great season.

[Captbuckster]

Now the thread really digresses.....
Re-read my posts and try to comprehend my position.

My positions are clear...

Have a great season.

ifeel your pain :52:

:54:

[hollywood9s]

Well here's an un-deniable fact....

You kill less keeper rockfish when you don't C&R troll than if you do.
And I believe that more fish die by C&R trolling than any other C&R methods.

I trolled for the first time on Saturday/opening day. When we got a knockdown, we took the boat out of gear, reeled in all other lines, then proceeded to reel in the striper.
How is that any harder on the fish than any other way of fishing???
From what i have seen on this site, and in person, most anglers seem to treat the stripers that they are catch & releasing with extreme care. Until some evidence points to the contrary i tend to believe it is not having a detrimental effect on them.
However, if the science eventually proves otherwise i will support more regulation of it.

[swartj]

While I agree that one man = one rod is as sporting as it gets, I'm not sure I trust the powers to only regulate trolling. From what I heard last weekend, we may lose catch and release fishing by any method YEAR ROUND. I never would've believed it, it's surreal, but I heard it from sources within DNR and at the highest levels of some of the sports fishing organizations. Why give up anything when we've got so much illegal activity going on? How many more fish were killed opening day than the entire preseason? How many fish does the charter fleet kill in one day? You guys know I'm no fan of trolling and I'm all about light tackle fishing, conservation, and perserving stripers as the gamefish they are. I also think some regulations on preseason fishing might be a good idea, but making Maryland a meat state? Come On!

I hear the alarm but what needs to be done? One would think MSSA would be tuned into this situation. Does MSSA have a position on this? What about CCA? There have been letter and email campaigns on various other topics what about this one?

[BayBum]

I'll wager that 90% of the people don't stop the boat.
And if you look around on this board, you'll find pictures of rockfish laying on the deck of the boat, being held up by their gills, and blood running down their sides.

And that's just the ones who happen to post their pictures here!

[Captbuckster]

I trolled for the first time on Saturday/opening day. When we got a knockdown, we took the boat out of gear, reeled in all other lines, then proceeded to reel in the striper.
How is that any harder on the fish than any other way of fishing???
From what i have seen on this site, and in person, most anglers seem to treat the stripers that they are catch & releasing with extreme care. Until some evidence points to the contrary i tend to believe it is not having a detrimental effect on them.
However, if the science eventually proves otherwise i will support more regulation of it.

that aint gonna happen w/ a 20 line spread, plus, you dont know, might get a second one on the lines still in the water...

[Shawn Kimbro]

I hear the alarm but what needs to be done? One would think MSSA would be tuned into this situation. Does MSSA have a position on this? What about CCA? There have been letter and email campaigns on various other topics what about this one?

Marty Gary told me that it was on the agenda at the next joint meeting of the Tidal Fish Advisory Commission and the Sports Fishing Advisory Commission. Their website says it's May 19th.

From here, I only have it as rumor, but there is a proposal, possibly initiated by the charter boat association to ban *all* catch and release, not just trolling, and not just off-season. That might be alarmist, and I hope it is, but I can't get the answers I want to hear from anyone. I did hear that Maryland CCA is "out in front" of the issue, but no specifics. (Anyone in the CCA know if there are specifics?)

It's rumors, so take it for what it's worth, but I've heard the charterboat association's position from several sources, and they all match. In a nutshell it's that pre-season keeps released fish from spawning, and summer C&R kills too many.

If anyone knows more, I'd sure like to hear it.

[aafinest]

Shawn apparently has heard the same information I have regarding preseason C&R. I think there's no question that it has become more popular recently and has gotten DNR's attention. Moreover, regulating preseason or eliminating C&R completely in Md. apparently has been endorsed by at least one influential group. But should this come to pass, everybody, regardless of what method they use to fish will be affected. It will not be aimed at just those who troll. I agree with Mark (bfaithful) 100% about C&R being about sustainablity. All we have to do is take a peek at B.A.S.S. Nobody is going to convince me that catching a Bass on a treble hook, throwing it into a livewell, putting it into a plastic bag, waving it around in the air and throwing it on a scale doesn't put stress on the fish. What about catch release of Marlin aren't they dragged thru the water, for longer periods and at higher speeds than the Rockfish we catch. This is not to bash a Bass or Marlin fisherman but to point out that I don't see anybody questioning their C&R methods or complaining about mortality.

[Francis]

LISTEN!!!!

You guys don't get it. I going absolutely freaking nuts on this topic. Explaining this to some has been like talking to a brick wall.

Here's the deal, guys. It's not about the state of the fishery, it's not about how many rockfish are in the bay or not. It's not really about the killing of rockfish at all. It's about politics and money.

Several groups want to shut down C&R fishing for several different political agendas. The MCA wants to close the flats because there are so many guides making money on the flats and they want the money going into their pocket instead. The conservation groups want to close anything that kills animals and they are starting with easy targets.

Trolling/jigging/bait fishing-- what ever it is. If you don't stand up and defend it, you are going to lose your ability to do it.

There are people from all sides on our board, not just fisherman, that's why so many controversial comments are made. I would be willing to bet some of these anti trolling posts are made just to cause a knee jerk reaction. The idea is that they are trying to make us fight amongst ourselves to weaken the recreational power. They really ARE trying to do that.

We all need to band together right now and defend our ability to catch and release however you want to do it. Let's worry about the smaller issues of when, where and how later.

The meeting Shawn posted about may be the most important meeting ever in defending recreational fisherman's ability to fish in ANY way before the rockfish season. The bottom line is that if the population is really in jeopardy we need to cut back the commercial and catch and kill harvest before we even think about cutting back the C&R "harvest." but that isn't the way it's going to do down if we don't stand up and fight for it.

[BayBum]

Speak for yourself...for me it IS about the unnecessary killing of rockfish.
If you're allowed one, catch one and eat it.
Don't catch 100 for the sake of catching them and expect all 100 to survive.

That's all

[LY2000]

Most of the C&R trolling takes place in the colder months (all mine does). I'd be willing to bet that there is less harm done to the resource C&R trolling than all the C&R LTJ and C&R bait fishing....which pretty much goes on all year.

If you have little experience trolling I can understand why you would think trolling is the most harmful. Done properly, I think very few fish are badly hurt.

Yes I LTJ and baitfish all the time.

[B-Faithful]

I am fairly sure that MSSA is pro-c&r. they have even recently issued a bulletin encouraging proper handling practices

I am also fairly confident that the CCA approves of c&r given their involvement with the Boatyard tournament

Does pulling a fish in at 2mph faster cause more harm than a longer fight on light tackle is irrelevant. C&R works. It always has. There are plenty of examples point to it working for sustainability.

Yes, Sustainability... That should be the issue at hand. Is c&r detrimental to the sustainability of the species? I think the mortality rates are low enough through this practice that banning c&r is a weak target to improve sustainability. If declining population numbers are a concern, DNR needs to look at when the season opens, other creel limits, etc. However, this type of effective management goes against a particular organized industry that is trying to point fingers in order to profit better in downturn in the economy. Sure they can point to a few photos of mishandling to get the emotions going for some but this does not prove that the fish will die. These are the typical emotion-reacting techniques that organizations like PETA uses to progress their agenda. Contrary to that I believe even the vast majority of even mishandled fish survive. I have seen some healed injuries on fish that show how hardy these fish really are. This is a silly debate to me as C&R is a POOR target to promote better sustainability of the species. Science and proven history is on the catch and release fisherman’s side

[Francis]

But C&R before the trophy season has got to be doing more damage to fish than not fishing before the trophy season.

Right, this is a given. But the other side of the coin is that C&R does WAY LESS damage than charter boats keeping 15 fish a day minimum every day for a month, thousand of pounds of prespawn fish being caught in gillnets in the Potomac River, thousand of fish caught on eels in Virginia Beach in the winter, and millions of pounds of fish poached illegally all through the year.

This is where we need to to concentrate our efforts. Not on something that could possible do damage to our fishery because it may be seen as unsporting. To the whole issue at stake this trolling debate is minor in the long run.

This is a time when we all need to ban together and REALLY fight for what we love to do as a community, not as a divided mass of chaos.

[Francis]

Speak for yourself...for me it IS about the unnecessary killing of rockfish.
If you're allowed one, catch one and eat it.
Don't catch 100 for the sake of catching them and expect all 100 to survive.

That's all

Right. . . and most here think it is. But the big issue isn't. It's about political power, agendas, and money.

[Francis]

Let me illustrate it this way. What would be better for the fishery, and only the fishery

1. Ban all catch and release totally and only allow catch and keep on rockfish IN season.

OR

2. Ban all catch and keep including commercial fishing altogether, charter boats keeping fish, etc. . . and ONLY allow catch and release.

To the people who ask me why I can't just catch my limit and go home, I ask them they can't just catch and release 150 stripers, and take a flounder for the dinner table.


Exactly. . .

[Francis]

Zam,
I agree with you one hundred percent. Maybe C&R guys undergo a few restrictions. Maybe we do sacrifice trolling or maybe we only use a few rods per person but not because the charter boat association wants to ban the flats in order to make more money for themselves.

That's why i am going full tilt. First we need science and facts, then we need to figure out what is best.

[joe117]

Right, this is a given. But the other side of the coin is that C&R does WAY LESS damage than charter boats keeping 15 fish a day minimum every day for a month, thousand of pounds of prespawn fish being caught in gillnets in the Potomac River, thousand of fish caught on eels in Virginia Beach in the winter, and millions of pounds of fish poached illegally all through the year.

This is where we need to to concentrate our efforts. Not on something that could possible do damage to our fishery because it may be seen as unsporting. To the whole issue at stake this trolling debate is minor in the long run.

This is a time when we all need to ban together and REALLY fight for what we love to do as a community, not as a divided mass of chaos.



Sure....C&R 15 fish results in more live fish than catch and keep 15 fish.
But C&R does take a toll in killed fish.
If there is some concern about the number of rockfish in the Bay then we could close the C&R pre season.

But the most important thing is to stop the netting of rockfish in Maryland.
Commercial fishing in the Bay and rivers is a huge waste of recourses that needs to stop.

[Fishamajig]

Quote Francis: "This is a time when we all need to ban together and REALLY fight for what we love to do as a community, not as a divided mass of chaos."

I guess this was my point in the beginning. There are some things better left unsaid or unseen. Example; Deer hunting. As far as I am concerned hunting is fine and dandy, but I am not a hunter. Laying a gutted deer across the trunk of your car stirs up the anti-hunters who use this as an example of why to ban hunting. These same people think meat comes right from the factory on a foam plate and cellophane.

I think we should "be cool" on the whole trophy striper catch & release thing. Every fish is a potential spawner, whether it is 12" or 40". Do not give the opponents fuel for the fire with your catch & release trophies. What we do not need to be is a divisive group. I understand that one industry who profits from catch & kill stripers does not like us catch and release guys...

[B-Faithful]

I am all for catch and keep (as my family are big fish eaters) but I see C&R as conservation with its low mortality rates. Banning C&R does little to promote sustainability.

[mrobertson]

This is a time when we all need to ban together and REALLY fight for what we love to do as a community, not as a divided mass of chaos.


Amen on that one Francis. Who F'ing cares if you like to troll, jig, live bait fish, guide, or charter.

Fact of the matter is, we are all fisherman, we all love to fish, and we ALL need to protect our right to it however we can.

[Trooperlxz]

I still challenge anyone to explain the "sport" in C&R trolling.
You drag lines...one hooks up...you drag it in, let it flop around, take pictures for a web site, then throw it back, hoping it swims away. Where's the sport?


I had at least five minutes of accelerated heart beating when pulling up that 42 incher and felt so much sore on my arms the next day or so. I am not sure how other people define what the sport is, I call it sport fishing.:yes:

Lixin

[hackeyfly]

Quote Francis: "This is a time when we all need to ban together and REALLY fight for what we love to do as a community, not as a divided mass of chaos."

I guess this was my point in the beginning. There are some things better left unsaid or unseen. Example; Deer hunting. As far as I am concerned hunting is fine and dandy, but I am not a hunter. Laying a gutted deer across the trunk of your car stirs up the anti-hunters who use this as an example of why to ban hunting. These same people think meat comes right from the factory on a foam plate and cellophane.

I think we should "be cool" on the whole trophy striper catch & release thing. Every fish is a potential spawner, whether it is 12" or 40". Do not give the opponents fuel for the fire with your catch & release trophies. What we do not need to be is a divisive group. I understand that one industry who profits from catch & kill stripers does not like us catch and release guys...
Bravo, sir, bravo ...
Pat in Joppa

[mroskam]

If you are C & R fishing and the fish is gut hooked or something happens where the fish is clearly going to die are you going to throw back a floater for the animal rights people to see or take it home and make sure the fish wasted? I'm hungry its comin home with me.

[hackeyfly]

If you are C & R fishing and the fish is gut hooked or something happens where the fish is clearly going to die are you going to throw back a floater for the animal rights people to see or take it home and make sure the fish wasted? I'm hungry its comin home with me.
Pre-season?
Pat in Joppa

[WiFiGuy]

Here's the deal, guys. It's not about the state of the fishery, it's not about how many rockfish are in the bay or not. It's not really about the killing of rockfish at all. It's about politics and money.


My extremely cynical views about politics, money and catch & release fishing are that it won't happen here. Here's why:

Our politicians only come out in support of issues that hold sway over large numbers people and / or that involve loads of money.

Unfortunately, the conservation of fish in the Bay is not an issue that affects how large numbers of people vote. With a population of 57 million (more than Canada and Australia combined!!) living in the Mid-Atlantic states, we "Save the Bay-ers" are really only a very small and politically insignificant voting group. Luckily for us, the views of Peta and its supporters are aslo not widely embraced by the general population. As a result we won't see anyone with any real political traction jump in front of this parade.

Regarding money, there's not enough in the C and R issue to make any politicians start salivating. Look at things like slots, cigarettes, and fuel. You're either addicted or you can't live without it, so it's regulated and taxed like nobody's business. Our esteemed public servants will never come looking for a pot of gold in this one.

[Trooperlxz]

I also like to have fun trying to catch fish (sport).

But C&R trolling fits neither category. (with the exception of taking pictures)


It does not logically make any sense. If you think catching fish is (sport) and you do not against trolling neither, then you got me totally confused for why you would not categorize C&R (catch & release) a sport. :wacko:

Lixin

[Trooperlxz]

If you are C & R fishing and the fish is gut hooked or something happens where the fish is clearly going to die are you going to throw back a floater for the animal rights people to see or take it home and make sure the fish wasted? I'm hungry its comin home with me.

I would throw the fish back, considering it will be an easy meal for other animals in water. Biological degradable "waste" will get into the whole echo life cycles. I will stick to the rules.

Lixin

[BayBum]

TROOPER...read carefully...I never said C&R was not a sport. In fact what I said was to the contrary.
What I said was that C&R TROLLING is not sport...in my opinion.

[Baldzilla 2.0]

Speak for yourself...for me it IS about the unnecessary killing of rockfish.
If you're allowed one, catch one and eat it.
Don't catch 100 for the sake of catching them and expect all 100 to survive.

That's all

For those totally against C&R, what about the folks who just enjoy being out on the water and fishing, but don't like to eat fish. I solely catch and release for myself because I enjoy fishing, but do not like to eat rockfish. I will keep one for a friend here and there, and allow those on my boat to keep them, but I C&R 95% of the time..So, I should not be allowed to fish?

[Francis]

My extremely cynical views about politics, money and catch & release fishing are that it won't happen here. Here's why:

Our politicians only come out in support of issues that hold sway over large numbers people and / or that involve loads of money.

Unfortunately, the conservation of fish in the Bay is not an issue that affects how large numbers of people vote. With a population of 57 million (more than Canada and Australia combined!!) living in the Mid-Atlantic states, we "Save the Bay-ers" are really only a very small and politically insignificant voting group. Luckily for us, the views of Peta and its supporters are aslo not widely embraced by the general population. As a result we won't see anyone with any real political traction jump in front of this parade.

Regarding money, there's not enough in the C and R issue to make any politicians start salivating. Look at things like slots, cigarettes, and fuel. You're either addicted or you can't live without it, so it's regulated and taxed like nobody's business. Our esteemed public servants will never come looking for a pot of gold in this one.

Right, which is why one organization of 200 members can put enough pressure on DNR and the ASFMC or whoever to actually make this thing have a chance at getting through. If you're a charter boat captain, you're in the MCBA. If you're a waterman you're in the MWA. If you're a recreational fisherman you could be in the CCA, MSSA, stripers forever, RFA, or nothing at all. Even though the recreational fisherman are strongest in numbers, they're weakest in actual political power.

Zam-I will send you a B-mail shortly. I have too many B-mails right now and I have to clean them out first.

[LY2000]

I still challenge anyone to explain the "sport" in C&R trolling.
You drag lines...one hooks up...you drag it in, let it flop around, take pictures for a web site, then throw it back, hoping it swims away. Where's the sport?

You're not "outsmarting" the fish...it's not man against fish....there's no challenge there.
Take a spinner and an ultra-lite, work on some perch, That's sport.
Jigging for rock is sport. Even bottom fishing with bloodworms is more sport than C&R trolling.

IMO "sport" and "recreation" are the same thing in fishing. We are, after all recreational fishermen/women for the most part. If you are out just for the meat, well I wouldn't call that sporting.

A 4 year old can cast a beetlespin and catch a perch, a 3 year old can get them with worms. How is using a spinner, that imparts all the action by itself, more sporting? How does baitfishing outsmart the fish?

To answer your question, part of the "sport" of trolling is in the preparation of the boat and rigs, part of it is in the hunt, part of it is in getting strikes and landing the fish with your hands and the last part is a release- not letting them flop on the deck like an amateur, not throwing them back and hoping- you release them carefully and they always swim away strong, no hoping about it. Are there more challenging ways to fish, sure. But you have apparently done it all so just work on your release methods for the sake of the "sport".

[Francis]

I don't want to talk about it but I can't stop myself. I know I shouldn't. . .

For all those who think there is no "sport" to trolling big spreads tell you what. I'll give you my 20' boat and my 24 trolling rods for a day and let you figure out how to run them all at the same time without getting tangled up. See how many fish you catch. Then, I'll run my spread on my boat and I bet you my boat title I catch more fish than you will.

Give me a break. Let me take this argument a step further. You're a brazen ego maniacal redneck hillbilly who only wants to kill fish and show pictures of them because you use a spinning rod and only real sport fisherman use fly rods. . . you moron.

Yes trolling is different. It's more about a system and manual work than it is finesse and feel but it's no less complicated. And no, I don't believe it does any more damage while catching and releasing than jigging or bait fishing with circle hooks.

And yes, if I was shown proof that it did I would probably switch tactics. But there are very few out there who do as much of both as I do, and I truly don't see a difference.

But none of this should take away from the fact that there are some organizations who are trying to shut us all down!

[B-Faithful]

Have I said.. To each their own on what method of fishing they enjoy...

If declining population numbers are a concern, DNR needs to look at when the season opens, other creel limits, etc. but ....

catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

:yes:

[Trooperlxz]

TROOPER...read carefully...I never said C&R was not a sport. In fact what I said was to the contrary.
What I said was that C&R TROLLING is not sport...in my opinion.

I am sorry, I still feel being misled. Are you suggesting catching fish by jigging is spot and trolling is not? This is really odd and selfish. What if somebody says your way of catching fish isn't sport. I suggest that you go to Wikipedia and check out what defines sport. I like this description: Sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play.
I see trolling that fits in every element here as a very demanding kind of sport.
Hope that you would change your mind.

Lixin

[steve waters]

I'd advise all rec fisherman to let these arguments die without response. Now is not the time.

What he said !!!! Give it a break

[Trooperlxz]

I don't want to talk about it but I can't stop myself. I know I shouldn't. . .

Yes trolling is different. It's more about a system and manual work than it is finesse and feel but it's no less complicated. And no, I don't believe it does any more damage while catching and releasing than jigging or bait fishing with circle hooks.



Totally agree with you Francis. I am in the learning curve stage for trolling and have experienced quite strong challenges at multiple aspects. It is not that simple from putting 6 sets of lines to 10 and then up to 20+ lines with trouble free (I am at the 10-line level now). I like to try every skill for fishing, jigging, fly fishing, canoe trolling, surf fishing..., all are fun to do. Yet, I consider trolling is the ultimate skill combining of its complexity and productivity. I am dreaming that one day I will be as competent as you and Skip.

Lixin

[nineball]

Totally agree with you Francis. I am in the learning curve stage for trolling and have experienced quite strong challenges at multiple aspects. It is not that simple from putting 6 sets of lines to 10 and then up to 20+ lines with trouble free (I am at the 10-line level now). I like to try every skill for fishing, jigging, fly fishing, canoe trolling, surf fishing..., all are fun to do. Yet, I consider trolling is the ultimate skill combining of its complexity and productivity. I am dreaming that one day I will be as competent as you and Skip.

Lixin

the real skill is trolling less rods and catching fish ,
Not 20 rods ,you can pick up a book or a spread sheet supplied by a place like tylers and figure it out from there. I see goose egg on talent there.



9ball

[steve waters]

How about catch and release season 1 week before the opening of trophy season and run throughout the trophy season. We can all go prove out our new spreads and still give the fish a little time to move North unharassed and spawn. When trophy season is over, keep the catch and kill limit at 1 per person all year. If what I read is true, most of the C&R guys probably won't practice their sport when the water is warmer and fish mortality is higher. Go get your 1 per person and then go catch a few perch, it's fun and the bay is loaded with them.

[B-Faithful]

To each their own on what method of fishing they enjoy...catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

The bay should always be open to Catch and Release.....

Moving back the start of the season would do far more for sustainability than banning Catch and release ever would.

[Ele]

LISTEN!!!!

You guys don't get it. I going absolutely freaking nuts on this topic. Explaining this to some has been like talking to a brick wall.

Here's the deal, guys. It's not about the state of the fishery, it's not about how many rockfish are in the bay or not. It's not really about the killing of rockfish at all. It's about politics and money.

Several groups want to shut down C&R fishing for several different political agendas. The MCA wants to close the flats because there are so many guides making money on the flats and they want the money going into their pocket instead. The conservation groups want to close anything that kills animals and they are starting with easy targets.

Trolling/jigging/bait fishing-- what ever it is. If you don't stand up and defend it, you are going to lose your ability to do it.


We all need to band together right now and defend our ability to catch and release however you want to do it. Let's worry about the smaller issues of when, where and how later.

The meeting Shawn posted about may be the most important meeting ever in defending recreational fisherman's ability to fish in ANY way before the rockfish season. The bottom line is that if the population is really in jeopardy we need to cut back the commercial and catch and kill harvest before we even think about cutting back the C&R "harvest." but that isn't the way it's going to do down if we don't stand up and fight for it.

Francis, I totally agree with you about this up comming meeting. We should pack the room with recreational fishermen.

On April 6th, there was a SFAC meeting, which we had no notice of, and on the agenda was whether or not to extend the C & R fishery on the flats, after May 3rd, if the water temps had not reached 65 degrees. Well, guess what, Bill Windley, who is a great supporter of the flats C & R season, and who is a SFAC commissioner was not there either. It really seemed odd to me that in order to get something to help the fishermen, it takes years but if they want to do something, like this, it takes one meeting.

The MSSA was represented and they voted not to extend the C & R season on the flats, along with most of the other commissioners. I believe this was all instigated by the MD CBA, like you said. They have always been against C & R fishery on the flats because they cannot participate in it, because of their large boats and are jealous of the small boat fishing guides that are reaping the benefits.

Ever since this extension had been implemented, three years ago, the water temps. on the flats have not reached 65 degrees before May 3rd. And, when the studies were done on the flats in 1989, the temps had not reached 65 degrees. It was proven then, that water below 65 has an almost negligible mortality rate.

I would urge anyone, who likes to fish, to contact their Senators and Delegates and let them know what is being considered.

Ele

[swartj]

I would urge anyone, who likes to fish, to contact their Senators and Delegates and let them know what is being considered.

Ele

Thank you Ele. I now know what I need to do.

[B-Faithful]

The MSSA was represented and they voted not to extend the C & R season on the flats, along with most of the other commissioners. I believe this was all instigated by the MD CBA, like you said. They have always been against C & R fishery on the flats because they cannot participate in it, because of their large boats and are jealous of the small boat fishing guides that are reaping the benefits.

Ele, I was told that the MSSA was the only vote to extend the season. I will check on that. I hope that the MSSA would be at the forefront of encouraging c&r fishing as it has always worked for sustainability. In my not-so humble opinion bag limits, open season terms, and other harvest regulations can be debated based on achieving sustainability but it is undeniable that c&r always works... I hope the only steps DNR takes towards acting on c&r is that they will work to promote and educate the public on better fish handling when participating in catch and release. I also hope that, as a member, the MSSA and other organizations will work towards the promotion of better fish handling as well. Personally, I wouldnt even care if there were a ban on stinger hooks during the offseason but my experience shows that it has little impact on being able to release healthy fish during this time of year.

I believe that the MD CBA believes if the c&r season is shut down on the flats that those people who would hire a guide would be more likely to charter if there was no c&r on the flats.. This is an issue about money not sustainability.

[Ele]

Marty Gary told me that it was on the agenda at the next joint meeting of the Tidal Fish Advisory Commission and the Sports Fishing Advisory Commission. Their website says it's May 19th.

From here, I only have it as rumor, but there is a proposal, possibly initiated by the charter boat association to ban *all* catch and release, not just trolling, and not just off-season. That might be alarmist, and I hope it is, but I can't get the answers I want to hear from anyone. I did hear that Maryland CCA is "out in front" of the issue, but no specifics. (Anyone in the CCA know if there are specifics?)

It's rumors, so take it for what it's worth, but I've heard the charterboat association's position from several sources, and they all match. In a nutshell it's that pre-season keeps released fish from spawning, and summer C&R kills too many.

If anyone knows more, I'd sure like to hear it.

Shawn, I, too, am waiting for some answers from Marty. You know what they say about rumors. They are usually true.

Ele

[reeltor]

If you decide to write your elected officials here is an easy link;

Maryland Election Districts - Find Districts For Address (http://mdelect.net/electedofficials/search.asp)

[swartj]

What should the message be? I was trying to write one and I am not certain I am getting the right points. If anyone wants to start a list it would be appreciated.

[Ele]

Ele, I was told that the MSSA was the only vote to extend the season. I will check on that. I hope that the MSSA would be at the forefront of encouraging c&r fishing as it has always worked for sustainability.

I believe that the MD CBA believes if the c&r season is shut down on the flats that those people who would hire a guide would be more likely to charter if there was no c&r on the flats..

B-Faithful, here is a quote I received from Marty.

FYI, I did mention to the Commission that Commissioner Bill Windley was not present, and I asked if MSSA Executive Director Dave Smith had a preference. Dave indicated that MSSA supported Option #3.

These were the options:
Option 1 – close season when water temperature reaches 60 degrees.

Option 2 – close season when water temperature reaches 65 degrees.

Option 3 – close season on May 3rd regardless of temperature. No early closure or extension.

Option 4 – close season at May 3rd, with extension if water temperature is less then 65 degrees. No potential early closures. (this is the option used in past years)

Option 5 – permanent season extension to May 15th. Highest risk of catch & release mortality. Water temperatures often reach 70 degrees.

The Commission was informed that closing the season based on a temperature trigger would require the continued use of a temperature probe and additional staff time. Fisheries staff supports option 3.

A motion was recommended to support option #3, and passed unanimously.

You hit the nail on the head in regard to the CBA.

As far as the continued use of a temperature probe goes, I thought you could get that info off the DNR website and does not require any monitoring by DNR staff.

Ele

[Turd Ferguson]

Is writing all we can do? is there a list of meetings
or anything like that we should be at?

Is this a decision of DNR or MD delegates etc.

We need to have a voice in this ....
Activists and such scream their case pretty loud!

If they're really considering this
Hopefully if we get involved we'll get
common sense regulations instead of losing (possibly)
C & R

[Francis]

There will be another advisory meeting on May 19'th I believe. The agenda has not been officially released yet but word on the street is this topic in going to priority number one.

When I hear official news that this topic will be discussed I was planning on paying to make it a sticky on Tidalfish and plead for help at the meeting. To me this is a very serious matter.

I will keep everyone updated as I learn more.

[27 sailfish]

I've been trying for a week to get a straight answer from DNR on what exactly the Maryland Charterboat Association really wants from a C/R ban. Funny my messages are not being returned or how everyone always seems to be at a " meeting ".

If it is to protect the Rockfish population - then they should eliminate the second charter trip of the day. That would save many more Rock then banning C/R fishing.

Or move opening day one week farter into April. An awful lot of roe ladden Rock were caught opening weekend and I'll bet few were released.

Weird thing - were was MWA and MCBA on the poachers ?????? I'll bet the poachers killed 1,000 times what C/R might kill.

[mroskam]

Pre-season?
Pat in Joppa

any season

[Shawn Kimbro]

Whenever I see a new poster show up in a thread like this I figure it's someone on the inside of the issue either trying to cause trouble or flush out information. Best to let it go.

[Jonah]

I don't want to talk about it but I can't stop myself. I know I shouldn't. . .

For all those who think there is no "sport" to trolling big spreads tell you what. I'll give you my 20' boat and my 24 trolling rods for a day and let you figure out how to run them all at the same time without getting tangled up. See how many fish you catch. Then, I'll run my spread on my boat and I bet you my boat title I catch more fish than you will.

Give me a break. Let me take this argument a step further. You're a brazen ego maniacal redneck hillbilly who only wants to kill fish and show pictures of them because you use a spinning rod and only real sport fisherman use fly rods. . . you moron.

Yes trolling is different. It's more about a system and manual work than it is finesse and feel but it's no less complicated. And no, I don't believe it does any more damage while catching and releasing than jigging or bait fishing with circle hooks.

And yes, if I was shown proof that it did I would probably switch tactics. But there are very few out there who do as much of both as I do, and I truly don't see a difference.

But none of this should take away from the fact that there are some organizations who are trying to shut us all down!

I'm am not anti-C&R. You should know (remember) that.

I am anti-C&R trolling... with all respect due, Francis, I've done more of it and, in my opinion, there's no way that one isn't harming the fish in some manner. Is the mortality rate higher than meat fishing? Duh... an absurd point.

I remember when this issue arose (it's like the tide) a number of years ago... you were probably still shitting yellow, the recs were going berzerk because charters were continuing to fish after getting their limits... why? They were getting limits in a couple hours into a pricey 1/2 day charter, and instead of returning to the barn, they C&R trolled. It was ugly... until the Recs joined in.

I'm reasonably sure you remember discussions on the "old" boards regarding this very (legal) issue. Must you stop once you have your limit? Isn't that what the Regs said?

At the very least, pre-season/ post season C&R trolling will be eliminated. The question is, will folks be allowed to C&R troll after the limit is in the box?

Damm... and just when you got that 30 line spread off a 20' boat perfected! There, most certainly, is no God!

[drewzim]

I am totally dumbfounded by all this. Who would have ever thought we may be fighting against a ban on C&R? For me, never in a million years. If it would happen to go through I would have to strongly debate whether not it is even worth keeping my boat at all and I bet I'm not the only one. How many thousands of dollars do many of us spend each year that would be lost. In these troubled economic times this could be a nail in the coffin of some businesses around. And if this is brought on by the MD CBA, which it appears to be, all I can say is how greedy can one group be? This would probably put all light tackle guides out of business. And the MD CBA thinks this would increase their business? I know one person who would never step on a Chesapeake charter again in my life just out of principle. Hell, I would even have to debate it at this point. Just when you think you have heard it all something even crazier comes along. But I guess you should never be surprised by anything in the Great State of Maryland.

[joe117]

C&R or catch and keep......the limit should be one fish per person on the boat.

[Francis]

I'm am not anti-C&R. You should know (remember) that.

I am anti-C&R trolling... with all respect due, Francis, I've done more of it and, in my opinion, there's no way that one isn't harming the fish in some manner. Is the mortality rate higher than meat fishing? Duh... an absurd point.


Well you see we have two very different viewpoints gleaned from experience, but no evidence to support either, so, I don't think it's worth arguing about any more. I still stand behind my belief that trolling does no more damage than any other type of fishing, but, I can't back it up with anything because there have been no studies so I might as well drop it.

Let me ask this then. If you admit catch and keeping does more damage to the fish than catch and releasing, why shouldn't that be the first to be limited. Why pick on a few dozen guys spreading their fishing out over a month when you have had over 200 guys out there killing pre-spawn fish daily for the past week? Isn't this the greater of the two evils? And there are still several fish that are pre-spawn right now.

And with all these concerns why did Maryland extend the season to December 31'st last year? So, it's OK to extend the season fifteen days into december for the charter boats to make money, but, I do it the next day on Jan 1 and I am suddenly a criminal. The fish caught in late December already had roe in them.

[spurgeon]

i think pre season c&r trolling only should be stoped or at least regulated to specific days

[Jonah]

Based on what factual scientific study?

C&R has always worked for sustainability and there are a lot of examples to point to.

This issue is a result of an industry grasping at straws..

I am not Anti-C&R.

I am anti-C&R Trolling.

Factual Scientific Study? How about Factual Experience?

Of course, I don't claim to have anywhere near your prowess with a broomstick.

C&R vs. Meat Fishing argument is absurd.

Since you represent Bill... advertise Judge... Do I assume you speak for Bill & Judge Yachts?

[rock n crab]

That trolled C&R fish gets into the boat and released much faster than the light tackle C&R fish..... Light gear takes longer to land fish, more stress on them.

[Brandon]

we are going to take this one to the conservation board. We really have talked about this a lot.

[Jonah]

Well you see we have two very different viewpoints gleaned from experience, but no evidence to support either, so, I don't think it's worth arguing about any more. I still stand behind my belief that trolling does no more damage than any other type of fishing, but, I can't back it up with anything because there have been no studies so I might as well drop it.

Let me ask this then. If you admit catch and keeping does more damage to the fish than catch and releasing, why shouldn't that be the first to be limited. Why pick on a few dozen guys spreading their fishing out over a month when you have had over 200 guys out there killing pre-spawn fish daily for the past week? Isn't this the greater of the two evils? And there are still several fish that are pre-spawn right now.

And with all these concerns why did Maryland extend the season to December 31'st last year? So, it's OK to extend the season fifteen days into december for the charter boats to make money, but, I do it the next day on Jan 1 and I am suddenly a criminal. The fish caught in late December already had roe in them.

My friend, I make little sense of the current situation and believe the Regs to be Com driven. Wasn't that very long ago (in my perception of years/ time) that the Recs had little or no voice at all.

We've drifted the CCNPP together (diff boats)... I love to C&R. What's more fun than "Force" fishing with a 6'6" MH... working your plastic of choice? Or having a big one slam a plug? You have honed your skills...LTG...trolling... it's a personal challenge and achievement and you love it, therefore, you're great at it.

But pulling artificials on a broomstick has it's place when meat fishing, but not C&R IMHO.

I'll even go so far as to say that the catch ratio is WAYYYYY up... because there's alot less food in the Bay for the Stripers. Can you remember when they use to be lure-shy?
Trolling used to be an "art form". Don't get me wrong, those that can put out a good spread, covering the water column are fishermen to be envied.

In the end, it's all driven by the money, Fran.

[B-Faithful]

Catch and release trolling harms the fish no more than any other method, most troll very slow so you are only pulling the fish through the water a mile or two an hour faster than from a resting boat. The fish are not being drug any faster than which they can swim. Water is moving over their gills. One can debate all day long whether a longer drawn out fight is harder on a fish than a fish being pulled slightly faster through the water all day long but it is irrelivant as Catch and release works for sustainability, it always has it always will. Through the the fish I have released through this method I am confident that the vast majority of fish are returned to the water healthy and easily able to survive. Again, For sustainability catch and release works, it always has and it always will.

I believe the CBA is working to divide recreational fisherman on methods to better push their goals of no catch and release on the bay in hopes of driving more people to charter in the open season. This is an issue where the MSSA needs to become relivant again and recreational anglers unite to fight this money-driven agenda. DNR needs to look at their management of striped bass with a sustainability mind-set. With the examples and history of how c&r has worked, I believe if the DNR believes there are declining population issues that they need to look at where fish are actually proven to be killed - that is the open season and the commercial harvest. There certainly are more effective ways at reducing mortality of striped bass on the Chesapeake than ending catch and release and those options include:

Moving the open season back until more fish have spawned
Limiting charter boats to one trip per day (just as recreational anglers)
Having a slot during the trophy season
Not extend the season 15 days like they did last fall (I am sure the CBA applauded that)
etc.


There is no evidence that catch and release fishing leads to mortality rates that noticably impact sustainabiliy of a species.

For sustainability catch and release works, it always has and it always will.
:rockon:

[Jonah]

we are going to take this one to the conservation board. We really have talked about this a lot.

Why? It's a good discussion of what appears to be an important topic.

[Jonah]

Based on what factual scientific study?

C&R has always worked for sustainability and there are a lot of examples to point to.

This issue is a result of an industry grasping at straws..

I am not Anti-C&R.

I am anti-C&R Trolling.

Factual Scientific Study? How about Factual Experience?

Of course, I don't claim to have anywhere near your prowess with a broomstick.

C&R vs. Meat Fishing argument is absurd.

Since you represent Bill... advertise Judge... Do I assume you speak for Bill & Judge Yachts?

[B-Faithful]

Since you represent Bill... advertise Judge... Do I assume you speak for Bill & Judge Yachts?

I sell/market for Judge Yachts.. on issues like this I speak for myself as a recreational angler. I will let Bill Judge speak for himself on these issues. You can call the shop for his thoughts on this issue if they are important to you.

[Captbuckster]

the real skill is trolling less rods and catching fish ,
Not 20 rods ,you can pick up a book or a spread sheet supplied by a place like tylers and figure it out from there. I see goose egg on talent there.



9ball

amen brother!

[Jonah]

I sell/market for Judge Yachts.. on issues like this I speak for myself as a recreational angler. I will let Bill Judge speak for himself on these issues. You can call the shop for his thoughts on this issue if they are important to you.

Real life = you can't have it both ways.

I will assume that you speak for Bill.

[B-Faithful]

That is fine. I assume you will not buy a boat. (I actually assume that you wouldnt have anyhow). Judge's sales are up even in this down market because they are recreational fisherman who know the needs and wants of other recreational anglers.

This is a weak attempt to intimidate me from posting my thoughts...obviously there must be some merrit to what I am saying or you would not have diverted the conversation with something that is irrelivant to the discussion.

[Captbuckster]

That is fine. I assume you will not buy a boat. (I actually assume that you wouldnt have anyhow). Judge's sales are up even in this down market because they are recreational fisherman who know the needs and wants of other recreational anglers.

This is a weak attempt to intimidate me from posting my thoughts...obviously there must be some merrit to what I am saying or you would not have diverted the conversation with something that is irrelivant to the discussion.

it is very relevant, since you are a mouth piece for judge yachts.

upon reading you are schilling for them, you lost all credibility in my eyes, now i know why you think they are such great boats. takes away any merit in your other post about judge yacht owners working together for fish. you're like the sham-wow guy. but worse.

[B-Faithful]

You are really reaching now and obviously trying to discredit me as my arguements must have hit a cord. (if you cant defeat the arguement, go after the one making the arguement technique) I announced my relationship with Judge back in Feb here on TF when I asked Bill to help him market his products since I believe in his product as a happy customer and believed a relationship could be mutually beneficial. (my father is a happy customer too with his 2001). I have never hid anything and have always been open unlike many others here. see here: http://www.tidalfish.com/forums/chesapeake-angler-original-board-maryland-angler/253152-disclosing-new-judge-affiliation.html Remember, I bought my boat first and anyone that fishes with me knows that I am very pleased with what Judge has built for me.

As Judge owners we do a fraternity of sorts and do work together to find fish just as other owners of particular brands do (ie. gradywhite club of the chesapeake). We enjoy the common bond of owning our boats and the relationship we have with a local builder. Many of us share phone calls and have even picked other VHF channels to work together some days (heck I just took a call here in my office from a Judge owner who is catching off of BPL right now as I was typing this). On opening day I know I alone was talking to 3 other Judge owners and each of us has anywhere between 9 and 12 fish. I know we were also conscious of trying to release roe laden fish. I guess you believe this shouldnt have been done since we were trolling. Anyhow, None of this has anything to do with the effects of catch and release fishing on sustainability.

why dont you attempt do debate the merrits of my arguements that catch and release works for sustainability with any proven research moreso than divert to other discussions? As I have been clear in my thoughts, Banning catch and release regardless of the method is a money-driven agenda that does little for achieving sustainability. If declining population numbers are a concern, DNR needs to look at when the season is open (heck md extended the season 15 days last year - I am sure the charter boats were ok with that), other creel limits, etc. but ....catch and release has ALWAYS worked for sustainability of a species, it ALWAYS will...

.(anything else is emotion of financially driven)

[jnashed]

This whole argument is a lot of BS. This whole sport vs. non-sporting is very judgemental to say the least. I know guys that say if it is not caught on a dry fly it is not sporting. They absolutely sneer at spinning rods no less trolling. Heck they wont even use a sinking fly line or wet flies for God's sake. So one person's opinion on what type of fishing is sporting and not is B.S., sorry. Just a little bit of arrogance and some jealosy at times. As a guy who loves to fly fish, I am arrogant enough to think that every fish I catch on the the fly is like 3 fish caught by the guy with a spinning rod.

Fishing is not a sport otherwise you could not drink beer and do it. (Sorry darts, bowling, pool, and even old timers softball) My opinion, thats all.

Fishing is a form of recreation thats it. What flies for one may not fly for others but that is the beauty of it. Many ways to catch fish, some more challenging than others and some perhaps more damaging than others but stop with the "My fishing is more sporting than yours" Go to a fly fishing seminar and talk to the hard core fly guys if you want that.

The thing to grasp is that if C+R fishing has the potential to be curtailed than any fishing can be. It is a slippery slope. Ban C+R on the flats now, then C+R trolling, then bait fishing and Chumming C+R, then all C+R then all recreational fishing. What is the end point? For that I hope one looks at the science. Science says circle hooks for bait, short fights with the fish, proper quick releases in the water if possible are the best. There is no study on trolling mortality, but the trolling speeds are low for rockfish, and the fights tend to be short with guys using heavier tackle, and most fish are lipped hooked. Tuna, marlin, etc are caught at much higher trolling speeds, and they survive with suspected low mortality and proven low mortality in Bluefin tuna studies. (Not the same fish, I understand)

Perhaps the biggest PROVEN mortatly variable is water temp. Summer time temps in the bay cause very high mortality in even the best release circumstances. So if ones uses science then perhaps the "Ban" should be in the summer for fishing for rockfish, or at least until water temps dip below 70 degrees.

But since everyone is giving opinion I will give mine. Keep the C+R, if there is a ban then ban June 30- Sept 1st. One fish per person >28 in the entire coast, and only one fish > 40inches in a year. BAN industrial MENHADEN fishing.

BTW how in the heck can they enforce no trolling C+R in season anyway. Sound like a poor use of limited DMR resources pulling over every boat trolling and citing guys who already have a limit. They can't even enforce th EEZ for goodness sake.

Jim

[B-Faithful]

Jim it is a money-driven debate.... They are trying to divide recreational fisherman.

[jnashed]

Very true, and they may be succeeding... Sounds like a diversion awy from the REAL problems with the health of the fishery.

Jim

[B-Faithful]

The ones initiating the c&r ban are the same ones that lobbied to keep the season open in the fall another 15 days.... are they interested in sustainability or money?

[Francis]

This whole argument is a lot of BS. This whole sport vs. non-sporting is very judgemental to say the least. I know guys that say if it is not caught on a dry fly it is not sporting. They absolutely sneer at spinning rods no less trolling. Heck they wont even use a sinking fly line or wet flies for God's sake. So one person's opinion on what type of fishing is sporting and not is B.S., sorry. Just a little bit of arrogance and some jealosy at times. As a guy who loves to fly fish, I am arrogant enough to think that every fish I catch on the the fly is like 3 fish caught by the guy with a spinning rod.

Fishing is not a sport otherwise you could not drink beer and do it. (Sorry darts, bowling, pool, and even old timers softball) My opinion, thats all.

Fishing is a form of recreation thats it. What flies for one may not fly for others but that is the beauty of it. Many ways to catch fish, some more challenging than others and some perhaps more damaging than others but stop with the "My fishing is more sporting than yours" Go to a fly fishing seminar and talk to the hard core fly guys if you want that.

The thing to grasp is that if C+R fishing has the potential to be curtailed than any fishing can be. It is a slippery slope. Ban C+R on the flats now, then C+R trolling, then bait fishing and Chumming C+R, then all C+R then all recreational fishing. What is the end point? For that I hope one looks at the science. Science says circle hooks for bait, short fights with the fish, proper quick releases in the water if possible are the best. There is no study on trolling mortality, but the trolling speeds are low for rockfish, and the fights tend to be short with guys using heavier tackle, and most fish are lipped hooked. Tuna, marlin, etc are caught at much higher trolling speeds, and they survive with suspected low mortality and proven low mortality in Bluefin tuna studies. (Not the same fish, I understand)

Perhaps the biggest PROVEN mortatly variable is water temp. Summer time temps in the bay cause very high mortality in even the best release circumstances. So if ones uses science then perhaps the "Ban" should be in the summer for fishing for rockfish, or at least until water temps dip below 70 degrees.

But since everyone is giving opinion I will give mine. Keep the C+R, if there is a ban then ban June 30- Sept 1st. One fish per person >28 in the entire coast, and only one fish > 40inches in a year. BAN industrial MENHADEN fishing.

BTW how in the heck can they enforce no trolling C+R in season anyway. Sound like a poor use of limited DMR resources pulling over every boat trolling and citing guys who already have a limit. They can't even enforce th EEZ for goodness sake.

Jim

This is exactly what I was trying to say although you stated it way more eloquently than I could have. Thank you.

[heimdall]

Jim it is a money-driven debate.... They are trying to divide recreational fisherman.

Who is they???

[Jonah]

Who is they???

Was wondering the same thing.

[Captbuckster]

Who is they???

everyone who stands in the way of the C&R fish they be owed!

[B-Faithful]

The ones initiating the c&r ban (with the DNR) are the same ones that lobbied to keep the season open in the fall another 15 days.... are they interested in sustainability or money?

see above for "they"

[Francis]

see above for "they"

Are charter boat captains owed the fish? Why should there be a trophy season and not a catch and release season?

Nobody is owed any seasons but if we have to pick I am certainly fighting for catch and release over catch and keep.

[Shawn Kimbro]

How about a counter proposal for C&R only on all charter boats. If it's sustainability they're after, why wouldn't they support it?

[B-Faithful]

I am not "owed" any fish. I plan on returning the ones I catch out of season to the bay for others to enjoy as well... heck some in NJ, VA, Mass or RI even have the potential to enjoy them too. Dont get me wrong, I am all for an open season with responsible bag limits but catch and release works for all, it always has!

Francis this is a silly debate as catch and release has always worked for sustainability. Mortality rates are low enough that C&R has always worked. This is about money.

Shawn, it is not about sustainability. If it were they wouldnt have pushed for extending the season last year. Again, it is about money.

[Captbuckster]

Are charter boat captains owed the fish? Why should there be a trophy season and not a catch and release season?

Nobody is owed any seasons but if we have to pick I am certainly fighting for catch and release over catch and keep.

im just ribbing you...you know my feelings on C&R...

Im guessing your friend and my ex-neighbor has some insight as to whats going on, which is what you are refferring to...

[heimdall]

everyone who stands in the way of the C&R fish they be owed!

Nobody is owed any fish but the spring season is the idea of a small portion of the rec user group.
And Yes it's about the money.

Money that could be lost because catching and releasing of a large quantity of fish before the spring season, was never in the equation when the fishery was presented to the ASMFC.

The season presented to the ASMFC was the 3rd Saturday of April to May 15th, not whenever the weather is fit before that starting date.

Also Francis, this involves many more charterboats then the 200 you mentioned of the MCBA.

The possibility of the ASMFC shutting the season down is always real. Income and support of families lies in the balance not just a persons right to fish.

[Jonah]

FWIW... Made a few contacts up and down the food chain yesterday on this subject.

Wave your broomsticks "bye-bye" to C&R trolling.

[B-Faithful]

FWIW so have I and I have been assured that Tom O’Connell, DNR Fisheries Manager, says there will be no decisions made without public comment and stakeholders.... DNR cannot act unless it goes through the process.

If mortality rates were a concern, then there wouldnt have been the hard lobby to extend the season. The very low mortality rates of C&R are not a blip on the radar compared to that of an extended season, removal of the slot, etc.

Remember this is a fight that others have brought on.

BTW, For sustainability catch and release works, it always has and it always will.

[Matt]

The thing to grasp is that if C+R fishing has the potential to be curtailed than any fishing can be.



I don't agree with that statement. In Europe, C&R with bait for carp was very big, until ethicists began to question C&R with bait. C&R is supposed to be a more "sporting" method to fish. C&R with bait, however, is not very sporting. Now C&R for carp with bait is illegal in some places. I haven't really formed a strong opinion about this one way or another. I'm just reporting some stuff I remember reading awhile back. I tend to agree C&R with bait isn't very sporting. And I think unsporting methods of fishing should be questioned. For example I think some trolling is questionable. I don't see how five rods per person is ever sporting. These guys beating their chests about big rockfish, with a 5 rod per person spread...? Sorry. Thats not sporting, and catching fish that way doesn't take much skill. Its just a lot of effort. As long as overcoming declining "catch per unit of effort" with 25 or 30 baits is legal, our fisheries will be experiencing problems. I think the rules should limit all fishing to two rods per person, and two hooks per rod at all times.

[B-Faithful]

it is about sustainability of a natural resouce. last thing i want is govt deciding what type of fishing is "sporting" enough for them. heck the "noodlers" probably think jigging is not sporting. heck, my biggest numbers of fish catch and releasing have occured while jigging. Does that mean it is less sporting? no. What is sporting to one person may not be to another. It is like a marathon runner claiming a golf is not sporting because it doesnt require the physical endurance or a basketball player saying it doesnt involve team work..

Tell all the tidal fishers that got skunked trolling on opening day in the 5 page thread started by Lenny Rudow that trolling isnt sporting and it didnt require much skill.. You also say fishing with bait is not sporting. again, your judgement call that many will not agree with.. Heck, to some running your boat 100 miles looking for birds and breaking fish and throwing a jig at them isnt sporting either. Should dnr limit how far from port one can travel for fish? what about fishing areas like the rips? should that be banned because some days it is too easy to catch fish there making it "less sporting"?

Catch and release regardless of what type of hook and line fishing is done, works for sustainability. it always has, it always will.

[hard_head]

Catch and release regardless of what type of hook and line fishing is done, works for sustainability. it always has, it always will.

You got any evidence to back that up?
How about this scenario..
For the heck of it let us say for a particular type of fish the C&R mortality rate is 15&#37;, for every 100 you C&R, 15 of them will die.
Now let us say for the same fish there is no C&R, and the limit is 3 fish. After that you have to pack it in and go home. The most a fisherman will kill under plan B is 3 fish in a day. Under the C&R plan A many, many more could die on a good fishing day.

[B-Faithful]

Do you have evidence that catch and release fishing has hurt a fishery from being able to sustain itself?

I will give just one example of where catch and release has worked..... large mouth bass. Now you give me just one example where catch and release fishing has caused a fishery to not be able to sustain itself...

Also the mortality rate of releasing striped bass has shown itself to be less than 10&#37; in cooler waters. And I would challenge this due to the fact the fish were penned to see if they would die after being caught. I wonder what percentage of fish would have died regardles if they have been caught or not due to the penning. Bottom line is that catch and release has always worked for sustaining a fishery, catch and keep has not. For the fisherman who does not eat fish, should he be not allowed to fish?

[hard_head]

I will give just one example of where catch and release has worked..... large mouth bass. Now you give me just one example where catch and release fishing has caused a fishery to not be able to sustain itself...


How's the shad fishery in MD doing?

[B-Faithful]

How's the shad fishery in MD doing?

"Over a four week period in April and May 1996, 150 hickory shad were caught and used as test specimens in ten trials. Participating anglers caught hickory shad using single hooked artificial lures with 6-7 weight fly rods. Fish were transported to holding tanks set up on the shoreline. A pump supplied creek water to the tanks using a flow through system. Survival was monitored 48 hours. No fish died in any of the trials and they appeared healthy and vigorous when released. Hickory shad that were foul hooked were used as well as lip hooked fish when it became apparent that foul hooking was not an uncommon occurrence. Fish were marked at the time of release. Weekly surveys to search for dead fish in the stream were conducted concurrent with the study. These surveys documented a few dead hickory shad in Deer Creek that had physical damage compatible with hooking. None of the observed mortalities had marks indicating they were released test fish.

In April and May of 1997 a similar tank study was conducted which evaluated the survival of American shad caught and released below Conowingo Dam on the Susquehanna River. Volunteer anglers, who used spinning tackle and artificial lures, caught 309 American shad. These fish were used in 13 trials that ran for 48 hours each. Mortality was less than 1&#37;.

These two studies indicated that the change in regulation to allow catch-and-release fishing for these protected species did not jeopardize stock recovery by causing a high rate of angler induced mortality. "

Recreational Catch-and-Release Mortality Research in Maryland (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/recreational/articles/crmortalityresearch.html)

I am not sure you can blame poor shad populations on Catch and release.... what else do you have?

[Trooperlxz]

Sorry. Thats not sporting, and catching fish that way doesn't take much skill. Its just a lot of effort. ... I think the rules should limit all fishing to two rods per person, and two hooks per rod at all times.

Really? were trolling that simple as you just said, Francis would have already lost his boat. Why don't put some efforts and challenge him. Obviously, someone has a chance while I don't, because I consider trolling is the ultimate skill of fishing, which immediately disqualifies my contention to win his boat and gears.

Putting "effort" is necessary, even it may not be sufficient, to warrant an activity as a sport. Trolling skills includes presentation design, efficient rod/line layout combos, strategic water-layer targeting skills (one can even accurately calculate the depth of a lure by math), turning skills, trouble-free pull-up tricks (especially more than one fish at a time), hunting target fish locations... etc. All of these are way more than just physical demanding. Plus, many guys like me and my friends, never let fade of our competitive minds for catching a big fish using a home-made (some time invented) lures. I don't know what more is needed to qualify trolling as a skillful sport?


Trolling is by all means measured as a sport, a recreational sport.

Lixin

[hard_head]

"Over a four week period in April and May 1996, 150 hickory shad were caught and used as test specimens in ten trials. Participating anglers caught hickory shad using single hooked artificial lures with 6-7 weight fly rods. Fish were transported to holding tanks set up on the shoreline. A pump supplied creek water to the tanks using a flow through system. Survival was monitored 48 hours. No fish died in any of the trials and they appeared healthy and vigorous when released. Hickory shad that were foul hooked were used as well as lip hooked fish when it became apparent that foul hooking was not an uncommon occurrence. Fish were marked at the time of release. Weekly surveys to search for dead fish in the stream were conducted concurrent with the study. These surveys documented a few dead hickory shad in Deer Creek that had physical damage compatible with hooking. None of the observed mortalities had marks indicating they were released test fish.

In April and May of 1997 a similar tank study was conducted which evaluated the survival of American shad caught and released below Conowingo Dam on the Susquehanna River. Volunteer anglers, who used spinning tackle and artificial lures, caught 309 American shad. These fish were used in 13 trials that ran for 48 hours each. Mortality was less than 1%.

These two studies indicated that the change in regulation to allow catch-and-release fishing for these protected species did not jeopardize stock recovery by causing a high rate of angler induced mortality. "

Recreational Catch-and-Release Mortality Research in Maryland (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/recreational/articles/crmortalityresearch.html)

I am not sure you can blame poor shad populations on Catch and release.... what else do you have?


Huh?
They tried on experiment one year apart. 10 years ago. How, after 10 years of C&R are the shad doing?

And , of course, you cannot blame the poor shad population on C&R, or on any one thing. Fisheries management is an extremely complex situation. If the Swiss think that mandating no C&R is better for their fisheries, let them have at it. I guess BASS will have to cancel the BERN BassMasters Tournament.
I suspect that a decent education program in conjunction with a C&R program would have a far better effect on the fish stock than this ban, but it is their fishery. Perhaps it will fail miserably and then no one else will have to even bother to consider such a plan.
It would be interesting to see to which ends they desire to manage their fishery, and what they think banning C&R will contribute towards that end.

[LY2000]

One could argue that catch and release is actually good for the resource: Banning it will discourage fishing in general, the money we pay for lures, guides, licesnes etc would no longer be there to support enforcement, science and lobbying for recreational fishing...the comms would get it all.

Really, done properly trolling C&R in cool water is fine. The guys that are bashing it are most likely not experienced enough to be good at it (so they call it boring or non-sporting) and they can only fish one way. It's like fighting one in a mild undertow or in a river with a mild current. Get over it and rally against Omega.

[jnashed]

I don't agree with that statement. In Europe, C&R with bait for carp was very big, until ethicists began to question C&R with bait. C&R is supposed to be a more "sporting" method to fish. C&R with bait, however, is not very sporting. Now C&R for carp with bait is illegal in some places. I haven't really formed a strong opinion about this one way or another. I'm just reporting some stuff I remember reading awhile back. I tend to agree C&R with bait isn't very sporting. And I think unsporting methods of fishing should be questioned. For example I think some trolling is questionable. I don't see how five rods per person is ever sporting. These guys beating their chests about big rockfish, with a 5 rod per person spread...? Sorry. Thats not sporting, and catching fish that way doesn't take much skill. Its just a lot of effort. As long as overcoming declining "catch per unit of effort" with 25 or 30 baits is legal, our fisheries will be experiencing problems. I think the rules should limit all fishing to two rods per person, and two hooks per rod at all times.


I think there is a problem when one limits something based on opinion. Is trolling sporting? It is for marlin, and sailfish. They even troll rigged ballyhoo (Bait) for them, yet no one questions the sportfishing aspect. Again ask a dry fly guy what is sporting and you may not like his answer on your "sporting" type of fishing.

The question should be is there a problem with Rockfish numbers which makes limitation on fishing necessary. There very well may be (in my opinion). OK, what to limit? I say limit what has the biggest impact. Rockfish historically feed on Menhaden, well the rockfih are now a lot skinnier than they used to be and have a higher rate of infections (as proven by science) Infections like Myco which they die from. So block menhaden industrial fishing. Second, the mortality of any type of C+R in the summer is astronomical (again proven in studies) so block rockfish season in the summer. Third, circle hooks have the lowest mortality (science again proves this especially for bait but also lure) so enforce circle hooks and barbless hooks if you want.

C+R mortality should be how we base limitations not "sporting or not" that is arbitrary.
So look at water temps, lures vs bait, circle vs Jhooks (no trebles please), heavy tackle with less time fighting fish vs light tackle and long fights, handling of caught fish. But do not limit based on an arrogant opinion. Again I know dry fly guys that would sneer at anyone doing something different.

I do not know the mortality of fish caught trolling, but the water temps are low, the tackle is heavy, the fights are short, the speed of the troll is slow (2.5-3knots), and the mortality of other fish caught trolling is not considered high (Billfish, tuna, etc)

What is the "sporting order"? Here it is for me from least "sporting" to most. I am sure some will disagree but I dont care it is MY OPINION.

1)nets (not very sporting but a good way to get bait.)
2) Bait/ chumming (my opinion, but to me always easier to catch fish on what they eat as opposed to tricking them into taking a lure)
3) Bait/ live or cut bait no trolling
4) trolling
5)LTJ (a lot of technique involved, but most guys still use the depth finder or birds to find fish. Is this sporting???)
6) Spinning rod casting or baitcast subsurface lures. Harder to cast than to just let out line jigging.
7) Surface casted lures. (fish eat under water mostly, reaaly tricking a fish here)
8) Fly fishing nymphs, streamers. Harder than spinning rods but not the ultimate.
9) Dry fly Fly fishing (The penaltimate in sporting)

By the way the guys who troll for sailfish in Costa Rica then cast a huge fly to the fish which is attacking the teaser like crazy is NOT flyfishing. IMHO

But who cares, I do numbers 3, 4, 5, 6,7, 8, and 9 and like all ways of fishing for different reasons. If you can ban C+R trolling then I can definitaly see a ban on LTJ w/o circle hooks in the future, or baitfishing at all, or a host of other things. And again, how do you enforce it and shouldn't the DNR be utilized finding the "bigger fish" or the more impactful poaching going on by recs and comms. Just seems like if there is a problem you are barking up the wrong tree.

BTW I did not go preseason trolling at all this year or last, but I don't see that as the problem. 'Bigger fish to Fry' out there.

Jim

[jnashed]

BTW, the shad numbers are a reflection of the Industrial herring fishing bycatch in the No Atlantic off New England and Nova Scotia. I doubt the impact is from C+R in the Potomac, or Susq rivers.

Jim

[B-Faithful]

Great post :yes:

[Matt]

I think there is a problem when one limits something based on opinion...

So block menhaden industrial fishing.

1. You think there's a problem when... OK. We all have opinions. I think its a problem to do anything without the benefit of science and history. That includes any kind of fishing i.e. before we start targeting fish we should have a high level of confidence that we're not gonna fish ourselves out of fish, or make ourselves look like we don't care. Thats why I brought up carp fishing. It wasn't my opinion, its a historical fact.

2. We have no reason to believe we can "block" industrial menhaden fishing. It sucks, but so far we're talking another historical fact.

My opinion is that recs should be limited to two rods, two hooks for all fishing. You have the luxury to ignore my opinion.

[Ele]

How's the shad fishery in MD doing?

Hardhead, There has been a 29 year moritorium on Shad in Maryland. Since this moritorium, the Hickory Shad have come back great. The White Shad, however, have not. The reason for this is that the White Shad, when they migrate, migrate off shore and are caught up by the trawlers.

The Hickory Shad, when they migrate, migrate close to shore and some of them do not even leave the Chesapeake Bay.

If the off-shore trawlers are not stopped, we will eventually lose all the White Shad and the River Herring.

Ele

[Capt.Nick]

I've seen a "substantial" reduction in river herring the last 5-10 yrs.I'm sure it has something to do with 'latent" fishing practices!by people who can't fish that much.Right?

[Matt]

I think Virginia still "manages" fisheries that allow harvesting and targeting of shad and herring. Plus now there's substantial cast net effort by certain migratory demographic groups.

[Norm Bartlett]

Just read 15 pages of discussion on banning C/R. Got a bum knee and I'm catching up on whats been going on up here since I've been in Florida for 5 weeks. There is a study which is about lactic acid build up that relates to fish being caught trolling. I'm going to try and find it. Maybe someone should just troll a hooked trophy fish around until he dies, then we will have some scientific evidence which will indicate if trolling can be detrimental to a stripers health. I would think that experience would compare to the water boarding torture treatment. I used to troll when I was younger but don't enjoy it now.

Norm

WATER QUALITY RULES

[B-Faithful]

I love the human comparisons to fish... It shows PETA is slowly winning. I guess it is like water boarding on humans except with air as fish absorb oxygen in water through their gills. I also love the argument that a fish can only holds its breath as long as a person too. I wish it went the other way too as an eel can live out of water for days. Unfortuantely I can't come close to that. (fish live on a lot less oxygen than people as a function of being a fish). Also to think that a chesapeake bay troller puts more stress on a fish than one who catches and releases with lighter tackle that takes longer to land a fish is silly. Since we are comparing to humans, I should be dead many times over as I used to be a sponsored competitive distance runner who has pushed my body to the limits many times and somehow managed to survive.

The whole debate is silly as catch and release works for sustainability, it always has.

[Matt]

first of all, I don't agree with Norm's characterization that trolling is somehow worse than fighting the same cow bass on light tackle. I think the facts will show a prolonged fight on light tackle and flyfishing gear is more damaging to large striped bass with all other conditions equal.

Like it or not unsporting techniques to hunt or fish are widely frowned on. My only concern about trolling is the increase in rods people are putting into their spread to compensate for fewer fish and fewer strikes. If you're meat fishing and you admit it, ok. Just don't complain about comms and menhaden and all the other issues. When you're throwing down five lines per person in the name of C&R, don't complain when we all lose our rights to C&R. That kind of C&R is not sporting. Its meat fishing, only...there's no meat. There's just an illusion that one's ability to troll 15 or 20 lines is a mark of fishing skill. Like baiting carp, this practice deserves to be questioned.

[Francis]

I have no comment. I am sorry but I just don't see it that way. Trolling monster spreads is just as technical as any other type of fishing in my eyes. Maybe not when there is a gannett show going on in front of you or when fish are holding on structure but it sure beats running 100 miles from spot to spot to try and find one or two fish.

How do you recommend that I get my non fishing guests on my boat to catch a giant rockfish? The other day I had a 13 year old and his dad both catch the largest fish on their lives. Should I have taught them how to jig and expected them to catch a giant fish? Or should I have told them that they need to practice for several years before they can expect to get a giant? Neither of them had ever even held a rod that didn't have a closed face and a button on it. Or is it not good to get new people passionate about the sport of fishing?

[paxfish]

light tackle and fly fishing you use much lighter gear and have to wear the fish down until its much more exhausted and less likely to live after release. I can't see them discriminating

Just when we think you're starting to get it, you go and spout off on something you know nothing about.

I haven't given up on you though, Zam. And I will definitely stack my 9wt up against your GTI or whatever winch you're using to keep your fish green and lively. I catch 'em closer to the rod tip, work em quickly and release at least as fast. With no barbs, trebles or stingers to slow things up....

[marlinpenn]

I think it is ironic that Herbs Tackle shop would post anything about the conservation of Menhaden, Shad and definitely herring. Conservation means not raping every creek in Cecil County to make $2. Over the past 5-7 years as herring has become more popular, the population in the North East creek has diminished greatly. The goodness for a little enforcement on the boundaries or there will be no herring left in the years to come. I understand making a living, but Mike is no better then the trawlers and commercial fisherman you are so quick to place blame on. I guess more restrictions on other commercial fisherman allow you to continue riding the cash cow….. Make that cash herring until they are all gone. Which will be everyone’s fault except for the guy taking all of the ones coming into the creeks to spawn?

[Matt]

seems to be some continuing misunderstandings about C&R. The faster you can winch a big fish to the boat, the better it is for the fish. I think this has been proven, although I can't say where or by whom. I think the facts will show that the longer a fish is played, the more lactic acid builds up in the fish. Anglers should use heavy enough tackle to bring a C&R fish in quickly. Trolling tackle is much more certain to bring a fish to the boat quickly, but we all have different ways to do things. Also I think the facts will show larger fish produce more lactic acid and often have lower survival after release than smaller fish.

[Matt]

I have no comment. I am sorry but I just don't see it that way. Trolling monster spreads is just as technical as any other type of fishing in my eyes. Maybe not when there is a gannett show going on in front of you or when fish are holding on structure but it sure beats running 100 miles from spot to spot to try and find one or two fish.

How do you recommend that I get my non fishing guests on my boat to catch a giant rockfish? The other day I had a 13 year old and his dad both catch the largest fish on their lives. Should I have taught them how to jig and expected them to catch a giant fish? Or should I have told them that they need to practice for several years before they can expect to get a giant? Neither of them had ever even held a rod that didn't have a closed face and a button on it. Or is it not good to get new people passionate about the sport of fishing?

I also have no comment. Except setting up a more effective spread may have technical merit. If the right color, depth etc really makes a difference, then why are five rods per person is necessary. IMHO the "monster" spread is more about increasing effort to increase production.

[B-Faithful]

I also have no comment. Except setting up a more effective spread may have technical merit. If the right color, depth etc really makes a difference, then why are five rods per person is necessary. IMHO the "monster" spread is more about increasing effort to increase production.


Arent all fisherman, no matter what method, looking to increase production. Isnt that why people will run looking for working birds, fish areas that hold more fish, etc. Everyone wants to catch more fish. Most trollers dont catch and release as many fish as people using other methods, especially when the fish are concentrated. The advantage that trolling has over other methods is that you can fish more area when the fish are spread out.

[Fishamajig]

WOW - What a thread!

Lots of good discussion, somewhat civil and it brings a lot of self perspective as to how/why we fish.

I am going to to email the author of the editorial piece in Salt Water Sportsman to see what a powder keg his writing touched off here in the Chesapeake.

In the end after reading 16 pages of this stuff I have to side with B-Faithful and Francis on their viewpoints. But that's just me...

[Matt]

Arent all fisherman, no matter what method, looking to increase production. Isnt that why people will run looking for working birds, fish areas that hold more fish, etc. Everyone wants to catch more fish. Most trollers dont catch and release as many fish as people using other methods, especially when the fish are concentrated. The advantage that trolling has over other methods is that you can fish more area when the fish are spread out.

A guy fishing with bait from the shore probably feels the same way about getting strikes, but the guy fishing five or ten baited rods from shore is meat fishing. If he's practicing C&R with five or ten baited rods from shore, its less than sporting by any reasonable definition. Not sure how trolling a monster spread is different.

[Ele]

I think it is ironic that Herbs Tackle shop would post anything about the conservation of Menhaden, Shad and definitely herring. Conservation means not raping every creek in Cecil County to make $2. Over the past 5-7 years as herring has become more popular, the population in the North East creek has diminished greatly. The goodness for a little enforcement on the boundaries or there will be no herring left in the years to come. I understand making a living, but Mike is no better then the trawlers and commercial fisherman you are so quick to place blame on. I guess more restrictions on other commercial fisherman allow you to continue riding the cash cow….. Make that cash herring until they are all gone. Which will be everyone’s fault except for the guy taking all of the ones coming into the creeks to spawn?

MarlinPenn, interesting 1st post.

You don't get it. You could close every river on the east coast to catching River Herring and it wouldn't increase the population at all, unless they stop the trawlers off shore.

You think Mike is catching all the River Herring? He uses a cast net for God's sake, not a gill not or pound net.

I normally welcome new posters to Tidalfish, but not this time.

Ele

[B-Faithful]

A guy fishing with bait from the shore probably feels the same way about getting strikes, but the guy fishing five or ten baited rods from shore is meat fishing. If he's practicing C&R with five or ten baited rods from shore, its less than sporting by any reasonable definition. Not sure how trolling a monster spread is different.


You are making a judgement call based on your own thoughts and opinions that I believe are irrelivant to whether catch and release works for sustainability or not. I dont think bait fishing really compares to presenting a spread of artificial lures that is made to look like a school of baitfish swimming through open water but your if it must be compared... If you had 4-5 guys working 10-12 rods between them along a bank side with rods out at different depths, different distances from shore, with different baits and were working together to catch and release fish quickly and efficently, who is to say that is not sporting. Working as a team is much of what makes trolling fun. You may not enjoy it but others certainly may...

I think there are a few points that many dont understand when they think about preseason fishing.. First of all most trollers are only catching a few fish per trip. Yes there are a couple of high number days from a couple of people that get a lot of attention on Tidalfish but the majority of fisherman are lucky getting but 4-5 fish with 4-5 guys on board. I am sure the other catch and release fisherman using other methods are experiencing about the same results. I am also sure the jiggers/bait fisherman/plug casters/whatever have a few guys with big number days too. (there are a lot of trollers getting skunked too). From experience I will also say that trolling leads to very few deep hooks allowing for a clean release. However, Personally I dont care about what method of fishing is being used as I believe catch and release fishing works for sustainability. It always has. What method of fishing is more sporting than another is all in one persons eyes and fishing shouldnt be regulated as such. (Heck we could have shoreline fisherman pointing at guys who use boats to fish from stating that the use of boats is not sportsman-like) I believe If fish populations warrant some more control for better sustainability, then the regulators need to look at the harvest regulations where mortality rates are clear. Here we are talking about a catch and release season in the Chesapeake when the water temps are below 60 degrees and scientific studies have proven that striped bass can survive the stresses of catch and release (as well as being penned).

I also believe it is bad for one group of sportfisherman to point fingers at another stating that they dont like the methods in which they are using, especially when both sets of fisherman are working towards returning the fish to the water for the other to enjoy. When we have catch and release fisherman pointing at other catch and release fisherman stating that they think their methods of fishing is better than anothers, then we have missed the boat on working together for a sustainable fishery --- Especially when there is a big commercial and recreational harvest (not only in Maryland but along the entire migratory run) of the fish that can and should be looked at first.

[Ele]

B-Faithful, very well said. Everyone has their own way of fishing and each should be respected. If not, we could be driving a wedge between every kind of recreational fisherman there is.

Ele

[Matt]

You are making a judgement call based on your own thoughts and opinions


We already crossed that bridge. Yes, I am making a judgement call, and so are you. In my judgement, a recreational fishing activity takes on a commercial-like appearance, typically when the effort is increased. Most recreational fishing regulations specify a number of lines or hooks per lines to curtail commercial-like recreational fishing. Without those regs, some people will simply replace rods and reels with a trot line. Personally I see very little difference between a troline and multiple rods and reels that accomplish the same goal. I also have a hard time distinguishing between artificial baits and live or cut bait - when the effort exceeds anything you could reasonably call "sporting" it’s the same deal, in my view. For those who are trying to fill a cooler with fish...ok. As long as its legal, do what you want. For those who utilize an unsporting level of effort to catch and release, sorry...I don't agree. I don't see any eveidence that commercial-like C&R is sustainable. I haven't heard a reason why it should be allowed. I think the rules should limit anglers to two rods per person, even with trolling. The first rule for good C&R, in my opinion, is to make it sporting. I'd like to see rules requiring single barbless hooks. Largemouth bass anglers, even without all the limits I would prefer, still do a great job of sporting C&R, and their fisheries are sustainable as a result.

[jnashed]

We already crossed that bridge. Yes, I am making a judgement call, and so are you. In my judgement, a recreational fishing activity takes on a commercial-like appearance, typically when the effort is increased. Most recreational fishing regulations specify a number of lines or hooks per lines to curtail commercial-like recreational fishing. Without those regs, some people will simply replace rods and reels with a trot line. Personally I see very little difference between a troline and multiple rods and reels that accomplish the same goal. I also have a hard time distinguishing between artificial baits and live or cut bait - when the effort exceeds anything you could reasonably call "sporting" it’s the same deal, in my view. For those who are trying to fill a cooler with fish...ok. As long as its legal, do what you want. For those who utilize an unsporting level of effort to catch and release, sorry...I don't agree. I don't see any eveidence that commercial-like C&R is sustainable. I haven't heard a reason why it should be allowed. I think the rules should limit anglers to two rods per person, even with trolling. The first rule for good C&R, in my opinion, is to make it sporting. I'd like to see rules requiring single barbless hooks. Largemouth bass anglers, even without all the limits I would prefer, still do a great job of sporting C&R, and their fisheries are sustainable as a result.

I respect your opinion but then why only target the striped bass for your regulations.

Does not largemouth and smallmouth populations need the same "protections" BASS may not be happy with that. Heck they still have "relesae " tourneys in the heat of the summer when Largemouth bass mortality is very high.


And what about the C+R billfishery which trolls 8-10 rods easily for one man to catch and release a sailfish or marlin.

BTW most weekend warriors fish with 3-4 guys and 10-12 rods anyway (not that far off from your idea). Very few get out and maintain 20+ lines when trolling. It is too hard and expensive. (I dont have 20 trolling rods and reels at almost $200 a pop) So your rule would effect a scant few people.

I just dont know if your goal would achieve any results expect to limit a few persons rods in the water. I have a feeling those individuals that can troll 20+ rods will still catch a lot of fish anyway. To me it seems a weak effort at controlling the sustainability problem. If numbers are down (and I think they are) then hit it where the numbers are. Not a few people actually releasing fish. Thats my point. Dont segregate the type of fishing, enforse or enhance the rules on limits, poaching, EEZ. And finally institute C+R rules that would enhance the fish's chance to survive. Ban C+R in the summer, use barbless hooks, use circle hooks, etc. Use actual science not opinion.

I'll go back to flyfishing for smallmouth bass now as I did yesterday wioth barbless hooks on a single fly. (I am not kidding, which is my favorite fishing anyway)

Jim

[Matt]

I respect your opinion but then why only target the striped bass for your regulations.

Does not largemouth and smallmouth populations need the same "protections" BASS may not be happy with that. Heck they still have "relesae " tourneys in the heat of the summer when Largemouth bass mortality is very high.


And what about the C+R billfishery which trolls 8-10 rods easily for one man to catch and release a sailfish or marlin.

BTW most weekend warriors fish with 3-4 guys and 10-12 rods anyway (not that far off from your idea). Very few get out and maintain 20+ lines when trolling. It is too hard and expensive. (I dont have 20 trolling rods and reels at almost $200 a pop) So your rule would effect a scant few people.

I just dont know if your goal would achieve any results expect to limit a few persons rods in the water. I have a feeling those individuals that can troll 20+ rods will still catch a lot of fish anyway. To me it seems a weak effort at controlling the sustainability problem. If numbers are down (and I think they are) then hit it where the numbers are. Not a few people actually releasing fish. Thats my point. Dont segregate the type of fishing, enforse or enhance the rules on limits, poaching, EEZ. And finally institute C+R rules that would enhance the fish's chance to survive. Ban C+R in the summer, use barbless hooks, use circle hooks, etc. Use actual science not opinion.

I'll go back to flyfishing for smallmouth bass now as I did yesterday wioth barbless hooks on a single fly. (I am not kidding, which is my favorite fishing anyway)

Jim

I know a few guys who take pride in how many rods they can put in a spread. Thats not for me, but hey if its legal and it makes you happy go for it. Just don't complain when comms are overfishing. Don't complain when the anti-carp people question your ethics. Don't complain when all recs lose rights because the monster spread trotliners were hellbent on meat fishing and flaunting it before our fishery crashed, again. I can complain though, because I see it coming. I know five rods per person is a bad idea.

Why pick on striped bass? For one thing because about 75% of the fish talk on here is about striped bass. 5 rods per person in the name of C&R is unsporting. Still no evidence its sustainable, or the right thing to allow. Just opinions. And a declining striped bass fishery.

[Francis]

Matt,
In some very small ways I agree with you. For instance, I would probably take more pride and have a reproduction done on my wall of catching a 50" monster on the flats on a topwater plug. Caught on trolling, it's not quite such a big deal. (To me)

That being said, I don't understand your viewpoint because you already stated that you don't think fish caught trolling have any more stress on them than fish caught jigging or flyfishing. So, why would you care how "sporting" (an already agreed upon subjective term) the technique is as long as the fish is put back in the water healthy and the mortality rate is low. Who cares how I caught it as long as it's released healthy, and you already indicated you thought trolling doesn't put any more stress on the fish. That's the important thing.

You compare trolling to commercial fishing. C'mon man. Are you saying me catching five total fish on opening day is the same as me catching a literal ton of fish in a pound net, sorting through them with a white rubbermaid snow shovel and then, after keeping my fish to keep, throwing the bycatch back fifteen minutes later. Oh and by the way, those fish swam in that net 6 days ago actually. . .If you think the mortality rate of these two things is the same and the damage done to the fishery is the same, you're off your rocker.

I don't know if you have ever been the sole keeper of a big trolling spread on your boat but I can tell you unless you have done it on your boat, you don't have a clue what is involved. For instance, personally I think fly fishing is a complete waste of time about 90 percent of the time in the bay, but I am not good enough to talk about it, so I don't. Also, if people are content to cast three times when they could just cast once, who am I to critique. I am certainly NO expert. That's why I keep my mouth shut.

Let me tell you about my trolling. . . Just to begin with, I had to purchase the baits, purchase the lures, purchase the weights, tie leaders, tie the baits on etc etc etc.

I personally made over 40 rod holders for my boat out of an alum pipe which took me several days to complete. I personally made and designed a set of planer boards which took me two days to complete and another few days to test. I personally poured, tied, and painted several of my lures. I searched craigslist for two years to be able to get my rods and reels that I could afford. Then, when all of this was in my basement, I took two days drawing diagrams on how to put it all on my boat.

The next day I wake up at 3am to get to my boat because I have to carry 20 rods out the back of my truck into my boat but I still want my lines in before anyone else. My slip is a long walk from where I can park so it takes me a half hour just to get the rods to the boat. I troll from 5:30 until 3:00 and catch 5 fish. After I am done trolling I wash each of my 30 baits individually and comb their hair. I take another half hour to carry my rods back to my truck. Drive home and then take fifteen minutes and carry my rods back in my basement after washing them all down again.

Repeat at least four times a week for two months straight while you still have to maintain a real job. . .

Commercial fishing is dangerous when the efficiency (efficiency being amount caught over amount of time and effort to catch it) of the technique grows and grows and grows. When the efficiency out surpasses the sustainability of the fishery, stocks start to decline. This is why giant trawls, for example, were so dangerous and wiped out so much of the Ocean. Suddenly nothing got in the way of a giant boat running a giant trawl. Corals reefs and rocky bottom which before could not be fished were now just wiped out because the trawl ran through it all.

In the above example, I spent about a solid week of time and several thousand dollars to catch five fish. I don't think we have anything to worry about. . .

And you're comparing this to setting a net and checking it once a week, or feeding ducks at a park and shooting them when they're eating the bread.

Cmon man, get real.

[jnashed]

Maybe the DNR should utilize the guys who put out the big spreads for C+R. By this I mean have a tagging program with a few GPS tags in them to see if fish caught and released #1) survive #2) where do they go to spawn (ie do fish caught south of near PLO go up the Potomac or contiunue up the bay, or other questions) oor #3) do they spawn at all (as some have guessed that caught fish "release eggs") #4) or do they get caught again at some time.

I am sure those who are adept at fishing "huge" trolling patterns would welcome the input from DNR. And a lot could be learned from a quick 1month study from late March until mid April. Of course the expensive may not be justified.

Jim

[Matt]

why would you care how "sporting" the technique is as long as the fish is put back in the water healthy and the mortality rate is low

I think recs should manage perception, because we knowingly and rightfully leave ourselves open to criticism by comms, decision makers and the public at large. If we're meat fishing and its legal, that’s fine. Just don't complain when we're lumped together with comms, because we deserve it. If we're having a lot of fun catching and releasing on our recreational trotlines, that's fine too. Just don't complain when outsiders question our ethics.

Are you saying me catching five total fish on opening day is the same as me catching a literal ton of fish in a pound net

When you're putting as many fish on the boat in as much or less time than a pound net could catch those fish, and you did it because you put a lot of a "monster spread" effort, then I'm failing to see how the CPUE is different. Because you call it "recreational?" And corrent me if I'm wrong but pound netters aren't allowed to keep roe laden cow bass.

One thing to remember is that we all get an opinion and in my opinion five rods per person is too many. I don't care if its in season out of season or what kind of rec fishing. That many rods is against rec rules in many places. The fact that Md allows it doesn't say much about how right it is. These are my opinions - for those of you who read what I write know I don't think recs are currently in a strong position to dictate what comms do in this state, because our own practices are questionable. The truth of what I write is or should be evident in the way our fisheries are treated as an afterthought.

[Trooperlxz]

A guy fishing with bait from the shore probably feels the same way about getting strikes, but the guy fishing five or ten baited rods from shore is meat fishing. If he's practicing C&R with five or ten baited rods from shore, its less than sporting by any reasonable definition. Not sure how trolling a monster spread is different.

This is what we usually consider as inappropriate comparison, some times it can be very misleading.
In terms of productivity, I don't think, from shore, that a guy who sets 100 rod/line/2-hook of lures can beat another guy who just uses one rod/line with bloodworm bait on a single hook. If everyone fishing on shore are all using lures but not baits, there is no need to set a limit for number of rods one can use.
Wished that you could present some data showing 2 lines of trolling has no less hooking rate as compared with 2 lines of bait fishing on shore.


Lixin

[Ele]

And corrent me if I'm wrong but pound netters aren't allowed to keep roe laden cow bass.


Matt, even though pound netters are not able to keep roe laden females, as you say, does not mean that they don't kill them, just the same.

When the flats studies were done, in 1989, Mike suggested we take some fish out of a pound net to act as a control. This was to prove that the net pen did not kill any of the fish.

The first day of the study, nine fish were taken out of a pound net, marked and put in the net pen with the hook and line caught fish, which I think was near 60. After 72 hours, 5 of the fish that had been caught in the pound nets had died and only 1 of the hook and line caught fish died.

Ele

[Matt]

If everyone fishing on shore are all using lures but not baits, there is no need to set a limit for number of rods one can use.

do you have data for that claim?

pretty sure we're still exchanging opinions here. I didn't understand your opinion btw

[Matt]

The first day of the study, nine fish were taken out of a pound net, marked and put in the net pen with the hook and line caught fish, which I think was near 60. After 72 hours, 5 of the fish that had been caught in the pound nets had died and only 1 of the hook and line caught fish died.


This is a real shocker.

[Ele]

Matt, no, that was not mentioned in the hook and line mortality study. I wonder why?

Ele

[Francis]

Matt I understand your point and I agree with it to some extent. You know I respect you and have asked for your help on many occasions. We could go back on forth forever but in the end our opinions are just going to be different.

How's the boat project coming along? All finished up yet? Have a good weekend.

[marlinpenn]

MarlinPenn, interesting 1st post.

You don't get it. You could close every river on the east coast to catching River Herring and it wouldn't increase the population at all, unless they stop the trawlers off shore.

You think Mike is catching all the River Herring? He uses a cast net for God's sake, not a gill not or pound net.

I normally welcome new posters to Tidalfish, but not this time.

Ele

Ele,
Thanks for the response and i was not looking for a welcoming party and i do get it. Let's point out the obvious first, Mike typically uses a dip net ( long pole with a large square net) now days since he ruined catching herring above rt 7 for all of us. I do agree the trawlers have an impact on the population as well. Does it make sense to catch for profit every herring that is not caught by a trawler when they are coming to spawn? I am sure since this is a cash business, you would not feel comfortable posting the number of herring that has been sold over the past three years? As a North East resident and life long county resident i find a lot of what you talk about is good for business. Just like in the spring when Mike was in the town park talking about saving the yellow perch (while sending everyone up to by rigs and minnows). I guess my point is, if you wanna talk conversation pratice what you preach. Unlike your unwelcoming comment, no disrespect intended, just a locals view and opinion.

[LY2000]

The burden to prove anything should rest on those who claim certian C&R methods are detrimental to the resource. Tell us when you figure out what many already know.

[Matt]

Matt I understand your point and I agree with it to some extent. You know I respect you and have asked for your help on many occasions. We could go back on forth forever but in the end our opinions are just going to be different.

How's the boat project coming along? All finished up yet? Have a good weekend.


Thanks for the reply...No boat work, just working on the house.

One of the things I've liked about this board is that people can generally disagree with eachother here without the thing breaking out into a namecalling broohaha.

[Ele]

marlinpenn, Mike typically uses a cast net, not a dip net.

I will not discuss anything further with you until you stop hiding behind a board name.

Ele

[marlinpenn]

MarlinPenn, interesting 1st post.

You don't get it. You could close every river on the east coast to catching River Herring and it wouldn't increase the population at all, unless they stop the trawlers off shore.

You think Mike is catching all the River Herring? He uses a cast net for God's sake, not a gill not or pound net.

I normally welcome new posters to Tidalfish, but not this time.

Ele


No one is hiding behind a screen name. What do you want, Name, Address, telephone number and or e-mail address? Not sure of the relevance but tell me what you want.

[Ele]

Your name will be sufficient.

Ele

[hedjug]

No one is hiding behind a screen name. What do you want, Name, Address, telephone number and or e-mail address? Not sure of the relevance but tell me what you want.

Yup, your name would be nice. Since we probably all know you, it would be nice to see what is your true angle/issue. That's the relevance, you may have a axe to grind with Mike or Ele & choose this forum to make them look bad.

You want my name, I will Bmail it to you, I don't want to be that open on the internet. But if I was to call someone out by name as you did, I would man up & tell everyone who I am as well.