Okay - MORE ethanol is NOT good!

[Sandtiger]

Okay people this is not good!!!

EPA is considering increasing the ethanol content in gasoline to 15 percent, which can damage your boat and engine. Use this website and tell EPA not to increase the ethanol blend level!

Click on this URL to take action now
NMMA - Government Center (http://capwiz.com/nmma/utr/2/?a=13199386&i=93306953&c)

If your email program does not recognize the URL as a link,
copy the entire URL and paste it into your Web browser.

[A Disciple]

Uhhhh....How exactly would 15% ethanol damage my boat and engine??

[Too Bubbas]

Lots of coverage on this lately on TF, the short version is that the ethanol does not have as much energy as gas, the more ethanol they add to the mix the less energy in the fuel. Your motor, even one built today, was/is designed to run on real gas, with 10% max ethanol. As they add more and more ethanol you will reach a point where your motor can not make enough power to do the job it was designed to do on your boat. Your 200HP won't make 200 anymore, you'll be under powered, over propped, over-working your motor. At the least you'll get poor performance, worst case you'll need a new motor. Guess this wasn't so short after all. Some others things to remember, the mix at your local pump may not be exact, % could higher than posted (even higher than 15, not good) and many boats unfortunately have the minimum motor that will run the boat, take away some of that power and you have problems.

Check with your motor manufacturer to be sure, but I'm pretty sure most say E10 max.
These flex fuel cars you see were designed to rum on this stuff, your boat engine was not.

Fish

[Pogyboat]

The more Etoh you get in the mix the leaner the ratio, which increases flame temp and usually results in valve and/or piston damage.

[Too Bubbas]

Pogyboat is right, more ethanol equals exh. valve and piston probs. Also, the higher the ethanol % the more water the fuel is holding. Current and older engines are not designed to run on this stuff.

The EPA slipped the E10 past us, nobody noticed. If you don't want E15, and eventually E20 (or whatever the corn growers decide we must have) then complain to the EPA. The review period for this change is open now. Check out this link from the NMMA;

NMMA - Government Center (http://capwiz.com/nmma/issues/alert/?alertid=13199386&PROCESS=Take+Action)

[Deep 6]

I signed the petition. The science behind ethanol is bogus it takes more fuel to produce a gallon of ethonal than it produces. Thus it produces more carbon. E10 is less efficient than straight gas and produces more carbon when used.

My groceries and food cost significantly more now because of E10 what will E15 or E20 do to the food cost and food shortages in developing countries... Wheres Al??? Get that guy on his big jet to come and splain. :wacko:

[Capt Crunch]

One big problem with ethanol blends in boats is that the more ethanol there is in the fuel, the more the fuel has a tendency to absorb water from humidity in the air (lots of humid air in a boat slip) but it can ony absorb so much water before the ethanol becomes "saturated" and the whole mess separares into layers - water, ethanol and gas.

Water works wonders when you try to run it through your filters or burn it straight in your engine. It can also rust stuff in your fuel system, etc.

Ethanol also acts as a solvent which can dissolve all kinds of varnish and other crud on the walls of your fuel tanks and put it back into solution which can clog filters and injectors and foul plugs. I believe this is only a problem when you first switch over from straight gas to an ethanol blend.

If you have fiberglass tanks, I've heard that it can attack the polyester resins used in the layup of those tanks and put that into the fuel as well. I'm not sure whether this problem goes away after a few tankfuls or not.

I think the problem of phase separation caused by the ethanol absorbing water and the water separating out is the main problem for boaters in the future. Even though most current motors are designed for a maximum of 10% ethanol in the gas, I'm sure they'll be able to design motors that can run on higher concentrations of ethanol. But until they find a way to prevent phase separation of the fuel, and all the problems with water ruining filters, causing rust, and shutting down engines, boaters will be screwed.

The funny thing is that Obama and company justify this by saying that they want to reduce carbon emissions. But the fact is, for every unit of energy produced, burning ethanol puts more carbon into the atmosphere than burning gasoline. Why? Because gasoline derives more of its energy from hydrogen (exhaust product is H2O) where ethanol derives more of its energy from carbon (exhaust product is CO2). So for every kilowatt-hour or horsepower-hour of energy produced, burning E10 or E15 (or E85 which is their ultimate goal) will actually put a lot more CO2 into the atmosphere than burning straight gasoline.

It doesn't make sense from a pollution standpoint, but it does make sense from a political standpoint: A lot of it is a scam to try to buy votes from "red" (Republican) corn-producing states in the Midwest where they make corn into ethanol. Good luck with that, Obama.

[rcareymichael]

This just happened to my dad's boat down in Manteo. The boat rarely leaves the slip. They just use it to hang out on during the summer. He needed to get it pulled to clean and repaint the hull, so the guys from Bluewater came to get it. Turns out he had several gallons of water in the tank, a result of the ethanol. The ethanol also ruined his carbs.

[rattler]

costs more energy to make it then it gives. how STUPID IS THAT!!!

[DWinter]

Incredible, these tree huggin democrats are outa control. Oh yeah, and friggin clueless too.

[fishhooktoo]

I have a question about fuel tanks. I realize that boat tanks are open to the atmosphere via the vent, Why can they not seal them like a
cars tank. Is it a safty issue. Seems like if they were sealed we would have less of a water absorbing problem.

Somebody, I hope can explain that to me.
Thanks.

[Capt Crunch]

I have a question about fuel tanks. I realize that boat tanks are open to the atmosphere via the vent, Why can they not seal them like a
cars tank. Is it a safty issue. Seems like if they were sealed we would have less of a water absorbing problem. Somebody, I hope can explain that to me.

Are car fuel tanks really truly sealed?

Seems to me that if you don't let air in to take the place of the fuel you take out, you're going to create a vacuum in the tank and it's going to cave in like an iced tea bottle when you drink from it. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi. That should crush a gas tank like a bulldozer.

[A Disciple]

Fuel tanks in cars are (for all intents and purposes) truly sealed. There is a vent that is computer controled In order to maintain the desired pressure. Its a very complicated system. It has the ability to capture the evaporative emissons from the fuel. It also tests itself under certain conditions by pulling a vacuum and holding it for a length of time to insure that it is sealed. Ive found on some of our models, the fuel filler neck, plastic with a soft metal insert where the cap screws on, will deveop small leaks that our test equipment cant see but the onboard computer can. Ive taken them off turned them upside down and filled them with liquid to verify the leak. Thats why you get a ck eng litght when the gas cap is left loose on later model cars. This WILL come to the marine industry one day. You can count on it. You and I probably wont be able to afford a boat by that time.

[BLUEYZWAITN]

seems to me if your selling me less gas that I have payed for by using Eth ... and raising the prices, why don't prices come down it we are not getting what we payed for....

Maybe if Congress would spend more time on cleaning water act..... Because it won't mater one bit about Eth is we have no place to enjoy it...

If there was only a place where all our good thoughts could be put on public display....OBAMA you need to get a fishing vessel and do the upkeep so you can truely see how its messing up the industry yourself instead of calling shots from the Oral office

perhaps a website to report damage directly due to ETH from all the boaters in the USA so that we have something to go back and show
the hundreds of thousdands of dollars your costing us... Proof is better than a Complaint

[Captain Len Gerylo]

No manufacturer will warranty your engine if you use fuels with higher than 10% ethanol. Higher concentrations will certainly cause burnt pistons and all sorts of other bad juju. The EPA is on a roll now. Wait for the new engine emission rules they are working on. With Obama as President and the Democrats firmly in control, watch our fun on the water about to come to an end. The EPA knows that they now have carte-blanche to enact every wild-a__d socialist/liberal idea they can think of to restrict our so called impact on the environment. Too bad. The only person that stopped this from happening in the past was George W. Bush. Maybe not the greatest President. But,,he knew that the socialists and liberals in government are not the friends of the American people.

[goose70]

Incredible, these tree huggin democrats are outa control. Oh yeah, and friggin clueless too.


Speaking of clueless:rolleyes:

Ethanol was pushed early and often by Bob Dole (guess the party), and the current proposed increase is being pushed by congressmen, senators and governors, BOTH Republican AND Democrat, from states with heavy agri interests. One of Obama's key environmental aids during his campaign is dead set against ethanol, particularly corn ethanol. Obama, on the other hand, is from a state with heavy agri-business ties.

As for ethanol releasing more greenhouse gases, or taking more energy to manufacture than does petroleum, that is simply no longer the case, strictly speaking (even for corn ethanol). However, if you look at the broader picture -- particularly forest land being mowed down in other countries to either replace food crop land lost in the U.S. (causing the U.S. to export less food crop) or grow their own ethanol crop (e.g. - Brazil), then you do run into a convincing argument that ethanol production exacerbates greenhouse gases and causes other problems associated with deforestation.

Now, if you switched from corn ethanol to sugar cane or (esp. in this country) sugar beat, the equation swings back in favor of ethanol since corn is one of the least efficient feedstock for ethanol. If you go to cellulosic ethanol (from naturally occurring switch grass, winter cover crop, old corn stalks that would otherwise be plowed under, etc.), then ethanol starts to look attractive. But we're not quite there in terms of economically viable technology.

Obama, unlike Bush, has shown an inclination to fight the corn lobby in favor of these other ethanol methods. Unlike McCain, however, Obama has not completely called out the corn lobby for the farm-subsidy lobby that it is (although McCain backpedaled on this when he campaigned in Iowa). Obama does have a reputation for encouraging debate within his staff and really learning the issues, so hopefully the smarter folks in his staff will win him over on this one. I know for certain that senior members of his administration are very cautious about increased ethanol, particularly from corn.

As for ethanol hurting boat engines, I'm not a mechanic but the statements on here are consistent with everything that I've read. This is obviously a serious issue that the feds would have to address (and I don’t know how). The best recourse is to write each senator and congressman from your state, and also write to any boating organization (Boat U.S., etc.) to ask them to keep up the lobbying pressure. I don’t know whether we’ll win the day, but I do know that lots of folks in the administration, agencies and congress would likely add this to their list of concerns about increasing ethanol use.

I’ll leave you with this interesting video documentary (the second half focuses on ethanol):

FRONTLINE: heat: watch the program: chapter 7 - two instructive lessons from the past | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/heat/view/7.html)

[Bart_Man]

O-Bummer doesn't think individuals should own boats anyway...only the Government....