Tilefish & Grouper Limits Coming

[Rob Holtz]

I was just listening to the audio of this months VMRC meeting and heard of some new regs headed our way. These items will be up for public comment at the May VMRC meeting, however I haven't seen anything in writing yet, just going by the audio discussion that asked for the public hearing.

New regs will be....

1 Grouper per boat
3 Tilefish per person - 18 Tilefish boat limit
Will need a permit to fish for these which will be free
Mandatory catch reporting

The background info talked about is that the South Atlantic council wants to extend its authority northward because the Mid-Atlantic council has no management plan for Tilefish/Grouper. If this happens VA will have no say in how its fishery is managed. Apparently the Mid-atlantic council is proposing to enact a Tilefish/Grouper plan of its own to avoid this from happening. These new measures would be a good faith effort in showing that VA is serious about managing a healthy fishery. What I heard is that the South Atlantic council is coming out with some very harsh regs later this year. These will include a coastwide catch limit of 523 Grouper total and NO fishing for Grouper/Tilefish over 40 fathoms of water. This would essentialy cut VA out of the fishery.

[kendall]

THATS TO LET THE COMMERCIAL GUYS TAKE IT ALL.....iD SAY WE COULD BOYCOTT THEM BUT THEY'LL JUST GIVE THEM A BAIL OUT TOO...

[Rob Holtz]

Sorry I didn't mention earlier but the commercial fisherman will also be taking cuts in both these fisheries. There will be more info available once the VMRC puts out the public hearing info any day now.

[kapoc]

I was just listening to the audio of this months VMRC meeting and heard of some new regs headed our way. These items will be up for public comment at the May VMRC meeting, however I haven't seen anything in writing yet, just going by the audio discussion that asked for the public hearing.

New regs will be....

1 Grouper per boat
3 Tilefish per person - 18 Tilefish boat limit
Will need a permit to fish for these which will be free
Mandatory catch reporting

The background info talked about is that the South Atlantic council wants to extend its authority northward because the Mid-Atlantic council has no management plan for Tilefish/Grouper. If this happens VA will have no say in how its fishery is managed. Apparently the Mid-atlantic council is proposing to enact a Tilefish/Grouper plan of its own to avoid this from happening. These new measures would be a good faith effort in showing that VA is serious about managing a healthy fishery. What I heard is that the South Atlantic council is coming out with some very harsh regs later this year. These will include a coastwide catch limit of 523 Grouper total and NO fishing for Grouper/Tilefish over 40 fathoms of water. This would essentialy cut VA out of the fishery.

Well here we go again the internet strikes again. Now as it stands the charters already have to report catches, need a few permits not just one ..(great one more) and were going to get pushed out of the fishery totaly. I am curious to know how this is going to conflict with NMFS Northeast policy and requirements. If we allow the intrusion past the nc border we will have a potental closure to the effect of what the south is facing ....basicly any bottomfish that you could expect to encouter would be closed there by reducing Va economy even further .......

[racn35]

Montana looks better every day

[Capt. Pete Bregant]

Being told what I can catch, when I can catch, where I can catch and how many I can catch! I am declaring war on all govening bodies of fishing. No longer will I report what I catch. This is America,land of the free and home of the brave, and these knee jerk idiots are not going to tell me what I can catch based on their assumptions! I am being forced to abide in rules and regulations that are unwarntied, unfounded and unwanted. My pyrate flag has been raised! FISH FREE OR DIE!!!!!!
Capt. Black Pete
F/V Revenge:death:

[Mike Avery]

This essentially ends deep dropping out of Virginia. Who is going to want to run out 70 miles to bring home these limits. What a bunch of idiots for even thinking about it.

[STX]

WOW, where & when do we start this battle...I'm w/ you Pete

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

Listen to what Rob said:

"New regs will be....

1 Grouper per boat
3 Tilefish per person - 18 Tilefish boat limit
Will need a permit to fish for these which will be free
Mandatory catch reporting"

If the new regs "WILL BE", why bother with public comment and/or public hearings? Apparently, they've already made up their minds on what the regulations will be - why bother with our input?

As I have said all along, these morons at the VMRC have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Throw the bums out and start all over with new, educated commissioners - is the ONLY solution. There is NO STUDY WHATSOEVER to support VA Grouper and Tilefish limits. There never was. This is the 2nd time this body (the VMRC) will attempt to ruin our deep dropping business.

I am looking for other like minded fishermen who will join me in a lawsuit against the VMRC Commissioners. If we all join together to bring this suit we can stop it by using restraining orders, civil suits against the individual and collective negligence, lack of foresight, intentional destruction of businesses, etc. Similar suits have been filed in other states and have succeeded. If we go after them individually (like other states have done) we can finally get rid of these guys. We need to send them a message that we will not sit idly by while our businesses and our recreational fishing is ruined with no scientific basis. I will contact several lawyers and we can pick one to bring the suit. Yes, it will cost money to bring this suit. But it will be a whole lot less than losing our businesses and recreational opportunities.

This group of incompetent commissioners have protected the Spiny Dogfish to the point of an entire fishery collapse. This group of commissioners have allowed Sea Trout stocks to collapse. They have mismanaged the Flounder and Tautog. Spawning Rockfish biomass is severely declining while commercial poachers are allowed to run rampant and when a few are caught, they are given little slaps on the wrist. When will we get angry enough to DO something about this?

Maryland has ZERO regulations on these fish, they can catch all they want. NC can land 5 Groupers per person and we can only land ONE per boat? VA catches less than 1% of the total landings on these fish (according to NMFS) and VA HAS TO CUT BACK?

[capt. jakeg]

Jim I would LOVE to spend some money on this, but what would be te benefit? It would cost a ton of money, be very time consuming, and in the end, the result would be dependent on science (which they control, as we have seen with the menhaden BS). Even if it were to go to court and win, it would still be a loss. As we have seen so many times before, Virginia takes the brunt of all regulations because our commission is a bunch of push overs that wont tell other multi state or regional regulating bodies to pack sand. Maryland has no regulations but yet they come in and fish the EXACT same waters.
What a joke. In the spring between striper fishing while waiting on the summer fish to get here and in the fall when the water cools down before the striper get here, there is ONLY one type of charter fishing I do- deep dropping. The VMRC might as well just say that there is going to be no charter fishing from march through may and november for me. That's four months income. Granted it aint the bread and butter of my season, but it makes my house payment, puts food on the table, and diapers on my baby girl. While we are suing them, we might as well through in a claim for lost wages because of unsubstantiated regulation.

[J.DAUGHTREY]

Truth be known if people would not brag about who caught what on the internet and how many they can cram in a picture you probably wouldnt see so many regulations so soon.Sometimes its best to keep your mouth shut.Not trying to offend all the superstars of title fish but how else would they have an idea of whats being caught and where.I like to give a report everyso often but it doesnt have to be in full detail to Lee Toliver or tidalfish.Just my 2 cents.These message boards are fun and educational no doubt but they are partly to blame.GOOD FISHING!!!

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

I'm with ya Capt. Jake. Lost wages will be the major part of our claim.

You asked what good will it do? First, it will get these idiots off the commission. This tactic has worked elsewhere for fishermen. Lost wages in the past, lost wages in the future, it will all be on the table. We just need to get the right attorney. I have already started the ball rolling with this.

I will have the attorney prepare a letter which we will present to the commission at the hearing. This letter will lay out the legal consequences for the individuals and the commission, collectively, if they enact these regulations. Then, if the commission acts, they will knowingly set the lawsuit in motion.

It will probably take years, but it is better than sitting on our hands and doing nothing. How many deep drops can you sell with those regulations?

[capt. jakeg]

I catch just as many groupers and tilefish as anyone out there and two years ago I quit posting deep dropping pictures on the internet for that very reason. Most times I dont even put reports on my own website.

[capt. jakeg]

Jim, the answer is zero. I would sell zero trips with those regulations. Simple answer. Nobody is gonna pay $1500 for 18 tiles and a grouper- also with the recreational sea bass cuts on the way, thats just fuel to the fire.

I'm in Jim. Call me.

[MeOff]

THATS TO LET THE COMMERCIAL GUYS TAKE IT ALL.....iD SAY WE COULD BOYCOTT THEM BUT THEY'LL JUST GIVE THEM A BAIL OUT TOO...

This NOT the situation with this fishery! Va. Commercials have a VERY low poundage on both species especially GROUPER. I have said this over and over; it will mean more GROUPER for our neighboring states like MARYLAND where there is VERY LIBERAL to ZERO regulations on GROUPER. We in VIRGINIA; BOTH rec.'s and Commercials are getting the royal shaft while maryland commercials fish the EXACT SAME AREA we are about to be heavily regulated in and legally take THOUSANDS of pounds back to their home state where their government HELPS the fishing industry.
Anyone who has ever fished on my boat will tell you I do not break the rules but this crap is starting to bring a bit of my buddy Capt. Pete out of me.
BTW Don't blame the internet. Obviously if the pictures posted on here affects how they regulate; they would see continual strong catches that would suggest a strong and healthy fishery! Besides you know everything they do is based on PURE SCIENCE!
OK BOYS ITS TIME TO GO WHILE WE STILL CAN!!

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

That is ridiculous blaming people who post fishing reports and pictures for the VMRC's incompetence. We have to report every single fish we catch to the NMFS - so they know already - pictures or not. They certainly don't need Tidalfish to tell them what is being caught, when all they need to do is set down their doughnut and read our submitted reports.

Are you suggesting we should falsify our NMFS reports?

[MeOff]

I have no where as much to lose as you who make a living out there but I would love to help. The current regulations as far as a recreational fisherman goes are more than sufficient to protect the species and keep it affordable to fish.
If they want to truely help the Grouper fishery GO TO MARYLAND AND MAKE THEM STOP ROBBING THE CANYON!!!!!

[cnaff]

You can't keep 5 snowys/deepwater groupers in NC.You have a FIVE fish aggregate limit of Tile and Grouper,with only 1(ONE) grouper,which takes away your right to one of those tiles.So for years we've had to make that calculation---Is it worth the expense? Not if it gets worse than the current regs! I would happily support a lawsuit war on the incompetents at VMRC--I love Virginia and her fishing,too and we can't just keep sucking up the march of the Fascist/Marxist morons who are running the show these days without a show of immutable solidarity and determination to make them lose THEIR jobs!

[Persistence2]

Guys, didn't you know the internet was evil...

This is not the fault of the internet...or anyone who posts reports. Fisheries have collapsed LONG before the f-ing internet.

I am not a deep drop fisherman. I have done it once...it is not really my cup of tea but it's total BS what they are doing. What about Gray Trout? What about the obviously declining Striper population...Flounder too. Spring time was almost a gaurantee for catching flounder (even if you were catching shorts). Well, the shorts seem to be gone now too.

It goes on and on...morons

Glenn

[Mike Avery]

Here is the audio file Rob is referring to:

http://www.mrc.state.va.us/Commission_Audio/2009/04/0409_17.mp3

[N4ZNH]

COMMISSION ACTIONS APRIL 2009

Here's the link:

COMMISSION ACTIONS APRIL 28, 2009 (http://www.mrc.virginia.gov/Commission_Summaries/cs0409.shtm)

[MeOff]

The CURRENT regulations in N.C. is 1 Snowie per person, 1 Red Grouper per person, 2 Gag Grouper Per person and 1 Yellow Edge per person. 1 Warsaw per Vessel. The limits there are per type of species not all grouper varities lumped into one regulation of one grouper per boat or person. So prior to the Proposed new reg.'s go into effect you can keep 6 Tiles per person unless you have a Snowie Grouper Then Its 5 tiles 1 Snowie and Still keep 1 Red Grouper, 1 Yellow Edge Grouper and 2 Gag Grouper per person and 1 Warsaw per boat.
Like I said this is prior to what is coming. They are going through the same crap we are! Like 1 grouper per boat, NO AMERICAN REDS although they are catching more this year than they have caught in years and the list goes on and on. another good reason to keep the southern region management people out of the mid-atlantic region!!!!!

[capt. jakeg]

BTT

[PlaynHooky]

I will gladly put my support in......This fishery does need some regulation but what they doing is making an uneducated decision out of haste based on NOTHING and not hinking of or caring about what this will do to those that rely on the fishery for a living.....ridiculous.....as usual....

[oceanrebel]

Why the hated outlook of Maryland Anglers, Are you talking about recreational anglers or commercial fishermen?? for most recreational anglers it is a long haul to the Norfolk Canyon, and I believe if any are the # of Maryland recreational fishermen are very small. Phil

[classicrockfish]

Thank you for this post. Also thank you for the audio Fishdad (Mike)..excellent idea to make that available to keep everyone on the same page! I think we need to get together on this one and come up with alternative ideas:yes:. So we can suggest something different and try to put that to action. These suggested regulations are a bit harsh. I understand the need for regulations but it would make no sense to even make the trip out there to the canyon with your buddies if only one person could keep a grouper..I don't even want to think of the hostility this would eventually cause not to mention this regulation may encourage unsafe behavior such as folks trying to make the trip alone so they wouldn't be denied their rightful catch and crazy stuff like that. We need to put our heads together on this one folks... action is necessary.. too much at stake here:yes:! Just my take on it.....

[cea]

i told you awhile ago to much chest pounding and everyone made fun of me LOOK AT WHAT YOU have now vmrc does look at all the pics and reports from reg guys these fish are very slow to grow in other words THE COMPUTER AND AND A GPS KILLED this fishery THANKS ALOT CHEST POUNDERS :nono::nono::nono:

[MeOff]

Why the hated outlook of Maryland Anglers, Are you talking about recreational anglers or commercial fishermen?? for most recreational anglers it is a long haul to the Norfolk Canyon, and I believe if any are the # of Maryland recreational fishermen are very small. Phil

No HATE to the Maryland Angler commercial or Recreational. We are about to be heavily regulated in Va. on species listed in the begining of this post and are currently restricted to very small quotas already; yet Maryland fisherman can fish in the EXACT same areas right beside my boat all day long and return to their home port and have ZERO regulations on the same fish. The powers to be think they are protecting the species by regulating Va. fisherman harder and seem to have NO CLUE the bulk of commercially harvested grouper from this area are unloaded in maryland fish houses. So in the end our commercial as well as wholesalers suffer economically and the recreational fishermen are given a choice to run 70 plus miles one way for 1 Grouper per boat and 3 tile fish per person or not fish this fishery. Basically if this goes into law we will no longer have this fishery off of our coast available to fish due to COST vs. Reward and our neighbors to the north will continue to fish as they please without regulation affecting them. How does this protect the Grouper and Tiles? Obviously Marylands Government protects their Seafood industry a lot better than Virginia's.

[Chumlord]

I feel the 1 Grouper per boat is a bit drastic but I'm good with it. 3 Tiles is plenty I don't find Tilefish that great eating anyway. Catch some Sea Bass, your three Tiles, throw in a Grouper and you have plenty of fish to eat. When you run out head out there again. Simple.

[Persistence2]

Lou,

You're talking like a trip to the Canyon is like a trip to the first island...not quite the same. As mentioned, I don't really target these fish but these regs are over the top.

Glenn

[capt. jakeg]

I would not have a problem with it if there were science saying that this is what needed to be done and if the surrounding states that fish the same area were put on the same regulation. This overregulation is unfounded. There is no science saying this needs to be done. There is no regulatory pressure leaning on Maryland to do the same. This is the VMRC cowering to the demands of the southeast region- who does not even have JURISTICTION in Virginia whatsoever, ruining my business and many other watermens and charter boat's businesses in the process. FOR NO REASON. This is regulation just for the sake of regulation.

[FSHNT]

I don't deep drop, but it was easy to see on the internet. I noticed that the reports were outstanding at first. Then they would be fewer and fewer fish. Eventually, reports were of no groupers. Am i wrong? Or do you think that it was that they just migrated?

Daniel

[Persistence2]

I think it has more to do with some anglers knowing where to catch them and others not knowing (me being part of the latter group).

I'd find it hard to believe that they have been fished out that quickly with a one fish per man limit

[Chris Boyce]

I have a few questions and comments on this.
First off, Why do we have to agree or go along with the South Atlantic council? They say the Mid-Atlantic council doesn't have a management plan in place for Grouper/Tilefish. Instead of putting these regulations out there, why don't they do a study, research or some type of science and find out if we really need these strict limits. Normally a limit is put into place to keep the population of fish in good health. There has been no study done, so how do we know. I remember when the big deal with Cobia happened. Dr. John Olney did his 3 year study and it showed Cobia in good health, good breeding stocks and they still decide to lower the limit from 2 to 1. So I guess even if you do have science these idiots won't listen. I don't understand.
Rick Robbins is suppose to be our representative, what are his thoughts on this matter?!
We have members of our VMRC, that when the first wave of limits were being put into place for Tilefish and Grouper, that publicly stated they DID NOT KNOW what a Tilefish was. How is somebody like that suppose to represent the state. I mean just look at the regulation we have now for Grouper, it includes wreckfish which are not a Grouper. They are in the Sea Bass family. That's like being a carpenter and not knowing what a framing square is.
If these regulations are put into affect, I know it will hurt the charter boats that run deep drop trips and tackle stores but what about other businesses. Think about restaurants in the area where these people take there charters from. What about Hotel business. I mean this would affect alot of people. Not to mention recreational anglers that would spend money in local tackle shops and marinas (Gas, Diesel, Ice, etc)
I can't imagine people chartering a boat to go deep dropping, riding 50 plus miles and all they can catch is 3 tilefish and maybe get lucky enough to be the ONE person to catch the ONE Grouper. Then hopefully catch 25 sea bass. It's not going to happen. Those people are not going to go.
I hope all the charter boats that have a interest in deep dropping, JIL CARRIE, RUDEE ANGLER and his other boat, WATERMEN, MATADOR etc show up and voice there opinions. Along with local tackle shop owners, marina owners and probably would be good to have our local IGFA representative show up and speak on what this fishery has done for this area. Along with as many recreational anglers that are able to come show up. It is pretty awesome to look at the records and see how many grouper, tilefish(golden and blueline), blackbelly rosefish, sea bass, etc that have been caught out this area. I know marina's enjoy this fishing, especially in the dead of winter, business is slower but they are still able to sell some fuel, bait and ice. It all helps.
This whole deal needs to be looked at instead of jumping into it and putting some limit out there with no real reason. OK I am done and will get off my soap box. Thanks. ChrisB

I forgot to mention, what about the Maryland boats? I guess we (VA anglers) will be under these laws and Maryland boats and continue to do what they have been doing for years and catch what they want, when they want and run back to there ports. Guess we will VA will continue to roll over and keep taking it like we have for years.

[jasonco51]

I don't deep drop, but it was easy to see on the internet. I noticed that the reports were outstanding at first. Then they would be fewer and fewer fish. Eventually, reports were of no groupers. Am i wrong? Or do you think that it was that they just migrated?

Daniel

Its not that the groupers were over fished, the blasted dog fish are over populated :clapping2::clap::clapping2::clap:

And after seeing all the limit of roe filled tog pictures on here I sincerly hope they close the season april 1 next year!!!:jackthread:

[eroller]

Its not that the groupers were over fished, the blasted dog fish are over populated :clapping2::clap::clapping2::clap:

And after seeing all the limit of roe filled tog pictures on here I sincerly hope they close the season april 1 next year!!!:jackthread:

:popcorn: This will be amusing.

[PROVIDENCE2]

...

[warbird-7]

According to the audio presented by Joe Grist, VMRC Fisheries Management, he
states that 2 yrs. ago when the first tilefish limits went into effect that the Va.
Charterboat industry supported a 3 fish limit for Tilefish. Just who (Charter Captains)
is he referring to that supported this?
Sounds like Grist's 'fisheries management' consists of showing a bunch of pictures
to the Commissioners during his presentation. This guy (Grist) has a history of
misconstruing facts related to fisheries management in the past. And this is who
we've got representing rec fishing interests.

[Chumlord]

Chris I agree... I will still go out there no matter what. I feel there should be some science behind regulations and even then the regulations should be conservative enough to err on the side of caution (the side of caution being a lower limit vs. a higher one). The one Grouper per boat per day seems a bit over the top and while I do favor a boat limit I think two or three per boat is more in line with the methods of catching these fish and the fact that they will not survive once brought to the boat. In reality the average amount of anglers on a recreational boat headed to the canyon is in my opinion four and generally all four will be fishing and more than one may hook up on a Grouper, now what. Additionally I feel they should separate Groupers and Wreckfish. As far as Tilefish go 5 seems like a good number. Those numbers seem to me to be conservative enough to allow science to come in and either prove the limits need to be lower or perhaps they could be raised but not by much. What about the MD boats???

[capt. jakeg]

Chris I agree... I will still go out there no matter what. I feel there should be some science behind regulations and even then the regulations should be conservative enough to err on the side of caution (the side of caution being a lower limit vs. a higher one). The one Grouper per boat per day seems a bit over the top and while I do favor a boat limit I think two or three per boat is more in line with the methods of catching these fish and the fact that they will not survive once brought to the boat. In reality the average amount of anglers on a recreational boat headed to the canyon is in my opinion four and generally all four will be fishing and more than one may hook up on a Grouper, now what. Additionally I feel they should separate Groupers and Wreckfish. As far as Tilefish go 5 seems like a good number. Those numbers seem to me to be conservative enough to allow science to come in and either prove the limits need to be lower or perhaps they could be raised but not by much. What about the MD boats???

This is exactly the kind of attitude that allows the VMRC to go ahead and enact regulation like this.
There is no science to suggest any of that so why change it? The VMRC is doing the same thing making assumtions, granted their assumptions are more stringent than yours are, but neither you nor they can say it should be 3 fish or 5 or 10 fish per person without scientific evidence. This should not be based on what Tom, Dick, and Harry assume to be a good catch. Tom, Dick, and Harry are not scientists who know what the fishery can sustain. There needs to be studies done before regulation. Nobody has any true idea what the actual numbers of fish are down there and once the VMRC changes the regulation, it aint ever coming back up- regardless of science.

[Chris Boyce]

I do agree they should make a separate category for Wreckfish, they are not in the grouper family. Down south they all types of regulations of different types of grouper, snappers etc. What not make a separate category for Wreckfish. If they do that, then maybe they should look at Tilefish. We catch golden and blueline. Why not make a separate category for them. Just wondering. Then you would have your wreckfish limits, grouper limit (which would not include wreckfish), Golden Tilefish, Blueline Tilefish and Sea Bass. Just some thoughts, what do yall think about separating the different tiles and the grouper/wreckfish?

[Peddler]

What is the official CCA VA position on this? Chris makes a good point about how the cobia limts were reduced and as i rember it CCA played a major role in the cobia limit reduction. Not really asking for opinions of individual CCA members but more the official CCA position. Seems that they could play a major role in this issue as well. Kevin? Saltyjb?

[Seagrass]

If the VMRC doesn't do something couldn't the southern whatchamacallit make it illegal to fish past 40 fathoms? I know for a fact that the VMRC has had pictures from this site at their meetings. I don't think they should be able to go by pictures that we post but thats all that they have . I don't think it helps when a charter post a picture with 20 plus grouper, 200 tiles, and 200 seabass. I know they are advertising but this is what they use to justify these limits IMO.

Chris I agree that all species should be seperate. They(VMRC)lazyand can't identify the species correctly. I've had the dumbasses say that a bluefin is a bigeye. I think this is one of the reasons they group them together. I'm not reporting nothing to them or answering their little surveys. They should do the damn study themselves. We pay taxes and license fees they need to put the money to good use and put it towards these studies BEFORE they set a limit.

Butch

[Fishman]

There’s already size limits on both these fish why make them any harsher than they already are?

As per the VMRC Recreational Fishing Regulations

Grouper (All Species including Wreckfish)

Minimum Size limit …….None
Possession Limit………….1 Per Person

TileFish (Blue line, Golden & Sand Tilefish)

Minimum Size limit …….None
Possession Limit………….7 Per Person

So why the change?

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

They already know EXACTLY how many fish we are catching. What part of mandatory fish landings reporting do you guys not get? They don't need to study or survey our landings. There's no viable way to estimate the population of giant Grouper - so it's just a guess anyway. More "study" is not going to help.

They surely don't need to consult with Tidlafish members - 99.9% of whom have never even caught a giant Grouper IN THEIR LIFE. I'd venture a guess that not 1 of the VMRC Commissioners have ever caught (or even seen) a giant Grouper.

It's sure easy to say "1,2, maybe 3 fish per boat is fair" when you have 1, 2 or 3 guys on your boat. But what if you have up to 20 (as is the case on my boat), or if you have 100 (as is the case on Capt. Skips' boat)? Catch and release doesn't work with giant Groupers.

It's actually very simple, VA catches less than 1% of the total Grouper landings on the east coast. That data is compiled by the NMFS. So you either call the NMFS liars or you say the morons at the VMRC are willing to reduce our 1% portion. I'll bet you one frosty cold malted adult beverage it's the latter.

All of this is moot. The die is cast. Just as Rob reported in the beginning of this thread, they've already decided what the regulations will be. Sure, they'll do the dog and pony show with a public hearing, etc., but it's all for just that - a show. I just hope that the lawyer we hire will make them pay - bigtime. The only way to solve the VMRC problems is to throw the bums out and start anew. The VMRC is broken and beyond the point of fixing.

[cea]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Ware Fisher]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I doubt if these guys view the discussion as entertainment. The decisions of some pencil-pushers affects their livelihood.

[saltyfishn]

sounds like a skipping cd...as i said before go get them while you can...this wonderful communist wealth is going to do as they please any way...and i know being union once you let some thing go you never get it back...lack of proof to change any regs on these fish is true and the cost to go out and catch them come on man maybe uncle sam needs to step in on this one Va shouldnt have the right to tell anyone what they can keep 70 to 80 miles out...its B.S. sign me up also

[Albemarle24]

If you want the real deal, call a VMRC phone number anytime and ask whoever answers the freaking phone a question (any question) about fishing/boating regs and see if you get a straight answer.

They are a joke

[ccx2]

sounds like a skipping cd...as i said before go get them while you can...this wonderful communist wealth is going to do as they please any way...and i know being union once you let some thing go you never get it back...lack of proof to change any regs on these fish is true and the cost to go out and catch them come on man maybe uncle sam needs to step in on this one Va shouldnt have the right to tell anyone what they can keep 70 to 80 miles out...its B.S. sign me up also

Thar lies my argument, its not Virginia waters they are regulating so they shouldnt even have a say in the deal, i know...there landed in Va.,..blah blah blah. Wasnt to long ago some on this board were trying to impose a self regulated limit so the state would see it there way when they put a number on the limit, i think they should have used there energy to fight states rights in federal waters instead or taken it up with the federal whatchemacallits that regulate the fish out there.

[cea]

i told yall so a while back and that the ALL MIGHTY VMRC does look at fishing websites wait till they see all those little female togs at the cbbt slam full of roe:surrender:

[Mike McCabe]

Listen to what Rob said:

"New regs will be....

1 Grouper per boat
3 Tilefish per person - 18 Tilefish boat limit
Will need a permit to fish for these which will be free
Mandatory catch reporting"

If the new regs "WILL BE", why bother with public comment and/or public hearings? Apparently, they've already made up their minds on what the regulations will be - why bother with our input?

As I have said all along, these morons at the VMRC have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Throw the bums out and start all over with new, educated commissioners - is the ONLY solution. There is NO STUDY WHATSOEVER to support VA Grouper and Tilefish limits. There never was. This is the 2nd time this body (the VMRC) will attempt to ruin our deep dropping business.

I am looking for other like minded fishermen who will join me in a lawsuit against the VMRC Commissioners. If we all join together to bring this suit we can stop it by using restraining orders, civil suits against the individual and collective negligence, lack of foresight, intentional destruction of businesses, etc. Similar suits have been filed in other states and have succeeded. If we go after them individually (like other states have done) we can finally get rid of these guys. We need to send them a message that we will not sit idly by while our businesses and our recreational fishing is ruined with no scientific basis. I will contact several lawyers and we can pick one to bring the suit. Yes, it will cost money to bring this suit. But it will be a whole lot less than losing our businesses and recreational opportunities.

This group of incompetent commissioners have protected the Spiny Dogfish to the point of an entire fishery collapse. This group of commissioners have allowed Sea Trout stocks to collapse. They have mismanaged the Flounder and Tautog. Spawning Rockfish biomass is severely declining while commercial poachers are allowed to run rampant and when a few are caught, they are given little slaps on the wrist. When will we get angry enough to DO something about this?

Maryland has ZERO regulations on these fish, they can catch all they want. NC can land 5 Groupers per person and we can only land ONE per boat? VA catches less than 1% of the total landings on these fish (according to NMFS) and VA HAS TO CUT BACK?

Sign me up Jim, give me a call. I will do what ever I can to help the cause.

Mike-Red Eye
24 Topaz
757-846-5325

[Tom Powers]

My understanding is that this is being driven by the South Atlantic Council. VMRC is trying to take measures so that the water deeper than 40 fathoms is not closed.

This is on the agenda of the May 12th ? ? FMAC meeting (I am pretty sure on the date). Hopefully it will be explained better then. IMO what needs to be done is that the folks fishing from MD ports (who have no limits) need to be reeled in not VA boats.

[31footer]

I'm on board to stop this outrageous control of power by VMRC
Tom why would the VMRC or the state of VA care what the South Atlantic Council does? Were in the Mid Atlantic Council

Tim

[racn35]

be sure and take your GRILL.......get your fill ON the water.............

[Mike Avery]

This whole notion that Virginia should take action for fear that some other organization might, maybe, who knows for sure, take action to restrict our fishing is a bunch of hogwash. Smells to me like a bunch of VMRC mamsy-pansies, gut-less, idiots. Why can't our officials think for themselves. Several points I'd like to make.

1. Nobody really knows if we are truly overfishing. I think there are plenty of bluelines around. When the dogfish are thick, they are just harder to catch as the dogs simply get to your bait first. Maybe we have a made a dent in the Norfolk Canyon population but Virginia is more than just the canyon and they are up and down the line. Groupers same thing, they are not just on the walls of the canyon so even if we are making a dent in the canyon grouper population, I doubt other areas are being wiped out. In fact, many of the successful anglers don't even go to the canyon anymore. I sure have not made a dent in the grouper population. Are we going to shut down an entire fishery just because one small geographic area (the canyon) has some pressure on it?

2. Pics on tidal fish mean squat. If our officials are using tidal fish as their means for collecting data, then see my comment above about mamsy-pansies. Collect some real data, then hold a public hearing to what to do about it. Don't hold a public hearing with the chicken-little mentality....again see my comment about mamsy-pansies.

3. We really need to tell the South Atlantic Council to go pound sand. Our run to the shelf is much farther than our southern neighbors. It's one thing to run out 20 or 30 miles to go grouper fishing and have the masses able to reach those grounds in any size boat. It's a complete different matter to have to run 70 plus miles to our grounds. This does mean less boats, less pressure. Yes a bluebird weekend can bring more boats than normal but we are still talking about a 70 mile run. My point is the restrictions to our south should be more strict due to the shorter runs thus greater fishing pressure....thus the need for separate regs, separate governing bodies....South Atlantic Council should stay in the south (the south will not rise again so give it up).

4. Inacting these drastic cuts will, no doubt about it, essentially shut down a great fishery in Virginia. Is that really what VMRC to do....shut it down completely. Nobody is going to want to make that run for such few fish.

5. We need to make a good showing at this public hearing. I will do my best to be there if it's in the middle of the day.

[JamesBreen]

Sign me up. The way VMRC operates makes me sick and I am willing to do anything in my power to turn this around. We really need a group of well educated people that actually go fishing and understand both sides of this matter, that of the fisherman and of the marine scientist. i would be willing to put in hard work to help out in this matter. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!

James Breen
(757)812-5236

[Chumlord]

This is exactly the kind of attitude that allows the VMRC to go ahead and enact regulation like this.
There is no science to suggest any of that so why change it? The VMRC is doing the same thing making assumtions, granted their assumptions are more stringent than yours are, but neither you nor they can say it should be 3 fish or 5 or 10 fish per person without scientific evidence. This should not be based on what Tom, Dick, and Harry assume to be a good catch. Tom, Dick, and Harry are not scientists who know what the fishery can sustain. There needs to be studies done before regulation. Nobody has any true idea what the actual numbers of fish are down there and once the VMRC changes the regulation, it aint ever coming back up- regardless of science.

So your stance is what... don't regulate or don't change regulations without a scientific study that proves there is a need to reduce limits???? And that stance is based on what study.... some study that says the current limit is not negatively affecting the fishery or your opinion??? Sounds like a lot of you charter boat guys are reacting to these new regulations because they may hurt your business rather than what is good for the fishery. Leave the emotions out of it, do what is right for the fish!!!

[BYRD]

Can the Charter Captains show how many out of town clients they have that they take to the grouper/tile grounds? Is there a study that shows how many out of town people trailer to VA Beach and fish for grouper or tiles? Maybe some folks come for vacation and take a fishing trip or something like that. I know the tourism industry is pretty big in Virginia, if somehow we can tie these fish to some tourism dollars and get the tourism industry involved it may help the cause. Again just a thought. Not sure how valid it is, but an option maybe.

[Rex]

I think all this ranting about VMRC is way out of line. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe this is an effort for Va. to control their own limits. As Rob said "These new measures would be a good faith effort in showing that VA is serious about managing a healthy fishery. What I heard is that the South Atlantic council is coming out with some very harsh regs later this year". Yeah lets do nothing and let the FEDS make the rules. See how everyone likes that!

Rex

[capt. jakeg]

So your stance is what... don't regulate or don't change regulations without a scientific study that proves there is a need to reduce limits???? And that stance is based on what study.... some study that says the current limit is not negatively affecting the fishery or your opinion??? Sounds like a lot of you charter boat guys are reacting to these new regulations because they may hurt your business rather than what is good for the fishery. Leave the emotions out of it, do what is right for the fish!!!

Exactly my point, IF NO SCIENCE HAS BEEN DONE, HOW DO YOU OR THE VMRC KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT FOR THE FISH? There is no study that says the current limit is too high and overfishing is taking place. YOU DONT KNOW.
You caught your first grouper a couple months ago, I'd be happy to listen to what you know about the fishery. Maybe you could put up a podcast or hold a garage seminar or something and teach everyone. You know just about as much about it as the VMRC does- which is little to nothing. You happened into a spot that somebody gave you and caught them. Everybody and their mother found that one spot because you called out the numbers on the radio and that one particular spot got picked out. But that doesnt mean that there are groupers scattered all over the continental shelf and you just dont know how to find them, it means that we need to be able to catch one fish per boat because the fishery is in trouble and we need to do whats right for the fish (that was sarcasm there in the last sentence).
Regardless of what your particular idea of the fishery is, personal opinions of "what is right for the fish" are not what is supposed to be the source of regulation. The job of the VMRC is not for them to determine what is a good catch, but their job is to use data to regulate as is best possible to sustain our marine resources.
Damn right I am reacting to it because it will affect my business. I would have no problem with them changing regulation for a just reason, but the only reason they are doing this is because the SE region is leaning on them. Up until about a year ago or two ago, the southeast region had no idea there were even groupers here.
HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO LEAVE EMOTIONS OUT OF IT....I'll tell you what, since you arent emotional about it, why don't you give me four months of your salary each year to make up for the business I am gonna lose and I wont be emotional about it. Then you can sit back and be very comfortable knowing that you are doing whats right for the fish.

Rex, We are not sitting back and waiting for the feds to come in and regulate us. We currently have regulations in place and I would somewhere like to see some proof that those regulations are not enough to keep a sustainable "healthy" fishery.

THIS REGULATION IS UNSUBSTANTIATED.

[Rex]

I don't know if we are overfishing or not. I have never caught a Tile or a Grouper, yet.:yes: My point is I DON'T WANT THE FEDS INVOLVED IN OUR FISHERY MANAGEMENT ANY MORE THAN THEY ALREADY ARE. :nono: If what I have been told is correct, the FEDS can mandate catch limits for each state/region. If a state/region refuses to impose the limits, the FEDS can shut down the fishery completely. Does anyone know if this is true?

I have my own issued with VMRC which I will not get into here but in this case I think they are trying to placate the FEDS, which may be necessary.


Rex

[goose70]

As I have made clear in other TF posts, I generally believe that we have to err on the side of tight fisheries regulations. I never believe that the default position should be no regulation, because time and again, little or lax regs have proven to be the undoing of fishery after fishery.

As a practical matter, we have neither the technology nor money to conduct exhaustive studies to answer the question definitively about whether a fish stock is overfished. Regulators have to do the best that they can with imperfect information. In my opinion, that means being very conservative in recognition of the fact that the information is imperfect -- it's better the have more fish than expected than to cause a fishery collapse.

Taking grouper as an example, without knowing anything about VMRC or their data, I at least know that grouper are relatively slow growing and slow to reproduce compared with other species. That, in itself, should be cause for caution. Additionally, many well-documented examples exist of grouper species being severely depleted in finite areas where they receive heavy fishing pressure.

Now, having said all of that, I agree -- at least to a point -- with the various posters who are opposed to a regulation that limits an entire boat to one fish. Given the cost and effort of catching that one fish, a regulation that severe is effectively a moratorium. And while I support strict regulations, I generally do not support moratoriums except where clearly necessary. The reason I generally oppose moratoriums is because when you remove recreational fisherman from the fishery, then you remove a group of people who have a stake in that fishery, who care whether it's depleted, and who have been a proven voice to sound the alarm about the need for conservation when they see evidence that the fishery is being depleted.

So, go ahead and fight this particular regulation, it seems like strong arguments exist to do so. But if you turn that fight into a more general trumpeting of the “right to fish” without meaningful limits, start asking regulators to stay out of fisheries, etc., then I think you will all be doing yourselves a disservice.

[baitman]

Unbelievable,

I really hoped that after the thrashing we are taking on flounder I would see some activism from anglers but with guys like Chumlord I am glad you have no voice.

Here is another guy who would have us all catch one or two of every species that swims just to say he we are conserving? No, because he thinks they will ALL grow up and be victims for his website and his ego.

Is this personal? Sorry. Whatever. :yes: CCA, Julie Ball, Chumlord.....these people don't speak for me or my customers.

Charter operations take people who might not otherwise get to go and who do not have the money for a year round boat. Their operators should be pissed and so should their clients.

The arrogance of some people including the South Atlantic Council. Oh and by the way:

All those voluntary bag limits we took on two years ago don't account for anything. Just like you said Brincefield, Darren, Jake and so on. Now we are going to get it worse and for what? Conservation and overfishing both have extremes and this is one of the former.

Brincefield,

You fled MD because of the regs. Now where to go? Good luck my friend.

And to all of you who will say, "Oh Baitman you are bringing out names and making personal attacks" don't expect a reply. Those people climb up on their pulpits and preach to us so they better be ready for rebuttal. You all need to get a dose of common sense and see what these people really want: gigantic fish for pictures and records and forget eating any.

goose70,

"meaningful limits" do you call the proposals "meaningful limits" ? What a joke?

Chris

[Nutz]

Seems to me if the limits are too low many fisherman may release a number of smaller fish in hopes of catching bigger ones in order to maximize the meat they bring home. Apparently there is a high mortality rate on deep caught fish and it might seem to reason that a low limit may increase the number of live fish removed from the ocean. Just a thought.

[Mike Avery]

I see lot's of concern for the grouper as there should be. But let me put a little perspective on the grouper.

I have not caught a grouper in my boat.

And I have tried, believe me. Oh yes, I've found plenty of wreckfish and they are good eating but I was targeting grouper. I have attended countless seminars, read many articles, studied the walls of the canyon and the points north and south but I have not brought up a single grouper (on my boat). I will admit to being a novice angler in many respects but if you follow my posts, I do get out there and give it my best.

My point is grouper fishing is not easy. There are only a select few recreational anglers and a handfull of charter captains that have them dialed in. The average recreational angler and the majority of charter captains do not have them dialed in. I simply don't see the need for such drastic reductions when the reality is not many are really catching them. If we want to do something about the groupers, read Jack's posts and stop the Maryland commercial fisherman from wiping them out with no limits.

[goose70]

Unbelievable,

goose70,

"meaningful limits" do you call the proposals "meaningful limits" ? What a joke?

Chris


Did you bother to read my post carefully before responding to it? If so, then you'd know that I think the limit is too strict given the circumstances.

[MeOff]

NUTZ "A high mortality rate" Every fish caught in these depths are DEAD when they surface!(except DOGFISH of course) If you ever get a chance go on a Deep Drop and you'll see. You are right though; there will be some who try to revive them but it will not work. We catch our 1 per person either wreck or Grouper and once you get yours you sit and wait for the others. I started this on my boat so everyone had their shot. The problem with this proposed regulation;(other than Maryland being allowed to kill all they want LEGALLY) is there is no way to know what is on the end of your line when everyone on the boat hooks up at the same time and they all crank up Groupers at the same time. This has happened on my boat more than once. SOOOO now what do you do with the extra 3 fish from the four you just caught? Throw back DEAD FISH? This law would be just as STUPID as N.C. law of no POSSESION of Wreckfish. It is very sad to watch a Very good eating fish float around your boat until a toothy critter eats it. They give you no other choice but risk a fine which I am not willing to do.
We have already done our part on Grouper Regulations in the State of VIRGINIA!!!!! WE DO NOT NEED ANYMORE RULES REGARDING THE BAG LIMITS WE HAVE NOW; Nothing has been proven that this fishery is not alive and well.

[Chumlord]

Have you conducted a study Jake??? You seem to have knowledge that overfishing is not occurring or is that an opinion not unlike mine just the opposite point of view. I caught two Groupers off VA in my life so what??? They were caught at a spot I found on my own and I did not call the numbers out on the radio but I did give them to anyone who asked. Simply put you are grossly misinformed Jake (no sarcasm intended). You know less about my fishing practices/habits than I do about the Grouper and Tilefish fisheries off our coast. I know nothing about these fisheries I simply believe regulations should be set conservatively until science proves otherwise that's all. No emotion involved.

Yeah, it must suck to have fishing regulations affect one's salary and livelihood but... that's the way it is. I fish for fun and whether the limit is one Grouper per boat per day or ten per person per day I'll be dropping on some numbers in the Canyon someone gave me, broadcasting them on the VHF, putting on garage seminars and producing podcasts (lot's of sarcasm there in case you didn't notice) drinking a beer and enjoying life looking at the pictures of all the Grouper a person who knows nothing can catch (more sarcasm)!!!

Maybe I should chime in on how the current administration (in the White House) is slowing down the construction of the CVN 78 class of aircraft carriers by five years. That hurts my wallet but you don't hear me crying about it on Tidalfish!!! Maybe you should give me four months of your salary.

[gwaud]

Maryland is brought up in these grouper discussions like a big comparison to VA fishery. I have not seen any post or few websites that would even boast catching a pile of snowy grouper/wreckfish or tiles like VA. maybe the fishery is there but VA boast it more than any state i have seen. I guess they are more concearned with unknown number of snowy grouper in VA waters than trying to hurt someone business.

[Mike Avery]

Maryland is brought up in these grouper discussions like a big comparison to VA fishery. I have not seen any post or few websites that would even boast catching a pile of snowy grouper/wreckfish or tiles like VA. maybe the fishery is there but VA boast it more than any state i have seen. I guess they are more concearned with unknown number of snowy grouper in VA waters than trying to hurt someone business.

Not talking about the Maryland recreational or charter captains that run to the Norfolk Canyon. Jack has been talking about the commercial long lining operations where they put down a hundred hooks and wench them up using commercial gear. Maryland boats can come to Virginia water and stuff their boat full of groupers and return to Maryland where there are no limits. Talking about operations like this video.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tyN94rXRQuo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tyN94rXRQuo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[MeOff]

So I'm just curious Chumlord; when you drop in the canyon under these new reg.'s and you luck up and catch 3 Grouper out of the four rigs you drop; What are you going to do with the EXTRA fish? Throwing back dead fish is a hell of a way to help the fishery! I'm not f-n with you either. I think all of us need to get serious about this on going "TAKE WHAT THEY GIVE US B.S." no matter what species of fish we are talking about.
Although Baitman and Jake have a funny way of putting it; which I would be too in their shoes, WE NEED TO BAN TOGETHER and put a stop to this. I'm not talking just about grouper either even though it's my personal favorite to catch any where from here to Florida. We get crap like the Flounder reg.s driven down our throats when everyone of us knows we kill more with the 19 inch limit by throwing back gut hooked SHORT fish than we would if it was 5 fish period no size limit. Catch your five NO THROW BACKS and go fish for something else. ALL of this comes with no science at all; it's based on the phone survey's and dock checks. Have you ever had either? I haven't!!
AGAIN!!!!! How can ALL of us...Charters, Recreational's and Commercials sit back and let neighboring states fish the same waters we fish and we get regulated heavier year after year while we sit back and do nothing. How about it captain Joe; Wouldn't it be nice to sell some of the thousands of pounds of GROUPER the MARYLAND boys sell instead of your 400lbs. per trip?

[Chumlord]

Chris I agree... I will still go out there no matter what. I feel there should be some science behind regulations and even then the regulations should be conservative enough to err on the side of caution (the side of caution being a lower limit vs. a higher one). The one Grouper per boat per day seems a bit over the top and while I do favor a boat limit I think two or three per boat is more in line with the methods of catching these fish and the fact that they will not survive once brought to the boat. In reality the average amount of anglers on a recreational boat headed to the canyon is in my opinion four and generally all four will be fishing and more than one may hook up on a Grouper, now what. Additionally I feel they should separate Groupers and Wreckfish. As far as Tilefish go 5 seems like a good number. Those numbers seem to me to be conservative enough to allow science to come in and either prove the limits need to be lower or perhaps they could be raised but not by much. What about the MD boats???


Jack I brought up that exact point in a previous response, see above.

Jake you can read as well!!!

[61flathead]

Fish Dad

Your video is of a Grouper boat working in the Gulf of Mexico. What does that have to do with commercial fishing in Va.? Are there any long line boats fishing for Grouper in Va.?
Also, I can not find the post where Jack was refering to the Maryland commercial fishermen. Any help will be appreciated.

THANKS

[Chumlord]

I thought Grouper fishing was pretty easy. Drop down a whole Bluefish and hold on. Making the video and podcast were harder.

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

What is interesting to me is all of these posters who have never even caught or seen a giant Grouper somehow "knowing" what is "best for the fishery". I hope and pray that 1/10th of the enthusiasm shown here on Tidalfish shows up at the public hearing.

You are completely missing the point. There is ZERO evidence that VA fishermen are depleting, or even marginally affecting the populations of giant Grouper. In fact, ALL of the evidence points to the contrary. AGAIN - LESS THAN 1% OF GROUPERS CAUGHT COASTWISE ARE LANDED IN VA (see NMFS Grouper landings data). Capt. Jake has hit the nail on the head. There is ZERO evidence that VA anglers or overfishing, or overfishing is occurring in VA. I would point out that between Capt. Skip Feller, Dr, Ken Neill, and myself, we probably have landed 20 of the top 25 Groupers ever landed in the east coast RIGHT HERE IN VA. Looks like a pretty healthy fishery to me.

Can you people really be this blind? The VMRC is screwing the pooch (again) and you apologists are already doing the Biden two step. What more do you need to see? You've seen the Dog Shark debacle, the Gray Trout disaster, the crabs, the Flounder, the Cobia, the Rockfish, the Menhaden, etc., etc., etc. - when do you guys say - hey, we've got a problem with fisheries management here in VA?

This is yet just another example of why this bunch at VMRC needs to go. Stand up and fight. Stop letting a VMRC that has ZERO knowledge and ZERO concern for the recreational angler continue to mismanage our fishery.

[Mike Avery]

Fish Dad

Your video is of a Grouper boat working in the Gulf of Mexico. What does that have to do with commercial fishing in Va.? Are there any long line boats fishing for Grouper in Va.?
Also, I can not find the post where Jack was refering to the Maryland commercial fishermen. Any help will be appreciated.

THANKS

That very same fishing you see in the video using that same type of gear is what the Maryland boats use in the Norfolk Canyon.

[Brandon]

I am not going to comment on the grouper or tilefish issue yet as I need to learn a little more, however I do have a question. How come Virginia can apparently regulate all these other species but can not figure out they need to reduce the catch of menhaden the Virginia portion of the Chesapeake Bay? You know more or less a main food source for all these fish? What gives there?

[cea]

these fish are very slow to grow and yes i have have caught my fare share of GROUPERS out of VA i never post for fear of the DUMB a!# VMRC knee jerk reaction

[Capt. Joe]

JIM, fomerly of Jill Carrie...........dont think for a minute that you guys have landed 20 out of the top 25 groupers caught off Va. MANY MANY fish are caught and never talked about. I would bet my house that over the years I have caught at least 20 fish bigger than your best.......And I am only one boat. NOt bragging, just trying to show that other fish are caught. And Jack (ME OFF) I am limited to 175 pounds of grouper/wreckfish, and 300 pounds of Blueline tiles. A thing no one is complaining about is the lumping of Golden Tiles in with Blue line bag limit........the fish are nothing alike, and allowing a boat to keep 7 golden tile fiah a man is insane. I personally dont think wreck fish and groupers should fall under the same linits either, but what do I know? Capt. Joe





b

[cea]

very good point about the goldens and bluelines :scratchchin3:

[MeOff]

This is not about who caught the top 10. This is about more regulations based on unproven facts. I'm pretty sure that with all of the great fishermen from this area; someone; some where; has caught more Grouper off of this coast than all of us put together.
Captain Joe that is exactly my point! You get 175lbs.'s and we get heavier reg.'s ; but if you have enough fuel; you can run north and unload whatever your boat will hold from the same area you return to Va. from and unload your 175lbs.

[Chumlord]

If there weren't multiple pictures posted by charter captains on the internet of their patrons showing off their second Grouper caught on one trip, purely in an effort to advertise their business maybe the VMRC wouldn't be focused on a boat limit!!! This caveat of a boat limit has clearly been abused in my opinion... on charter boats and for registering personal records/awards. It was just a matter of time before a boat limit only regulation was put in place. Keep posting pictures of people claiming more than their personal limit and of people weighing in more fish than you can legally keep for an award and pretty soon every species in our waters will have a boat limit only in place. I don't care I'll still be out there!!! It's all fun for me. Fish on!!!! Even if it's the only one I can keep we will all take turns cranking it up!!!

Here's and idea.. add one dollar to the cost of a boat license and everyone who helped crank up the boat's one fish will be eligible to receive a citation!!! SWEEEEET!!!!!

[Seagrass]

When and where is the meeting? Are we allowed to talk or just sit and listen?

JFYI the VMRC does not give a rats ass about how much money local chartes and business lose. They are just like PETA. They will do anything to protect the sea kittens. VMRC was created to make jobs and to make liberals happy.

I also heard one of the top dogs in the VMRC has someting to do with dogfish business(catching and selling). If this is true wouldn't that be a conflict of interest.

[capt. jakeg]

Lou, you admittedly have caught 2 groupers off Virginia your entire life, this is my point exactly.... if you have only ever caught two, then what is your dog in the fight? Since you have caught two grouper in your life that makes you two times smarter than anyone one the VMRC, but still should not be making regulatory decisions. You should not be weighing in on something you know nothing about, but then again you are becoming famous for preaching what you dont know how to practice.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT I OR ANYONE HERE SHOULD HAVE A SAY IN WHAT THE LIMIT IS. I AM SAYING THERE NEEDS TO BE A STUDY DONE BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. I CAN DEFINITELY READ. IF YOU COULD, I WOULD NOT HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING THIS.

There have never been pictures from matador of groupers or wreckfish on the internet, and no I havent caught any of these 60 pound fish on my boat, but Ive had my share of 40# fish. I made the mistake one time of posting pictures of golden tiles on the internet and I do not allow pictures anymore. Besides that, the pictures on the internet I would think would be proof that we have a healthy fishery.

You are never gonna be forced into retirement and lose money because of regulation, and you can bet your ass if you were, that you would be on some website somewhere crying just like me. It might just be a game and fun for you, but its my livelihood. I dont come to where you work and slap the #$^ out of your mouth and tell you how to do your job. Quit telling me how to do mine.

WE HAVE FAIRLY STRICT REGULATIONS IN PLACE ALREADY. MARYLAND FISHES THE EXACT SAME WATERS AND HAS NO REGULATION AND NO PLANS FOR ADDING REGULATION. THE REASON THE SE IS NOT MESSING WITH MARYLAND IS BECAUSE MARYLAND HAS THE BACKBONE TO TELL THEM TO PACK SAND.

[Chris Boyce]

Leave the damn regulations alone until we know what we are dealing with.

Capt. Joe, I did raise the question when I asked, why not have separate limits for Bluelines and Golden's. It makes sense. They are two different fish. We have regulations for Black and Red Drum, different types of tunas, why not make them for Tilefish. I also believe that wreckfish should be separate from our Grouper limit. How can "they" say that a wreckfish should count for our Grouper limit when they are in the Sea Bass family.

Jim, you are right about the less than 1&#37; of Groupers caught coastwide are landed in VA. That's pretty pitiful for them to say we are overfishing these fish, when they really don't have ANY evidence. Like I said, we just keep taking it and taking it with these regulations. When will it stop. I agree also that the VMRC in a whole needs to be revamped. When the first round of Gouper/Weckfish and Tilefish limits came out, one of the commissioners said they didn't even know what a Tilefish was. How can somebody like that speak or even began to represent us. Our fishery management so far as VMRC sucks!!

Somebody asked what is CCA's position? Good luck on getting a straight answer from them. This is a tough issue and CCA has a history of just backing away or going with the flow on "Hard Issues". I go back to the Cobia regulations when all the controversy was going on, the CCA was alot bigger then and one of there big members Larry Synder kept putting pictures up during his presentation at the VMRC meeting of all these Cobia on the dock at Wallace's and saying people were slaying these fish and so on. When Harry Johnson, owner and operator of Wallace's Bait and Tackle at the time stood up and started his presentation, he showed a picture of Larry Synder with a 70 plus pound Cobia hanging under the sign. Just an example of how these guys work. Enough on the CCA.

I would also like to hear the answer to what Warbird-7 asked, "According to the audio presented by Joe Grist, VMRC Fisheries Management, he
states that 2 yrs. ago when the first tilefish limits went into effect that the Va.
Charterboat industry supported a 3 fish limit for Tilefish. Just who (Charter Captains)
is he referring to that supported this?"
This guy Grist is a joke. I would love to hear the answer to this one. I don't see to many charter boats Captains on here saying that.

Jake, so why can't VA tell them to pack sand? Is that because we have bent over so many times they think we will continue to. If so that's sad. Why does the South Atlantic council even care about US here in VA. Doesn't there jurisdiction stop at the NC/VA line. We are under the Mid-Atlantic Council, I would hope that Mid-Atlantic would tell SA council that we already have self imposed limits without them bothering us and we are doing just fine. As far as VMRC saying we need to go along with what the South Atlantice does that crazy. I really think they need to look at Marylands regs. If we only account for 1% of Grouper caught coastwide. Doesn't really make sense.

One last thing, what day and time is this meeting? Thanks. ChrisB

[Mike McCabe]

Leave the damn regulations alone until we know what we are dealing with.

Capt. Joe, I did raise the question when I asked, why not have separate limits for Bluelines and Golden's. It makes sense. They are two different fish. We have regulations for Black and Red Drum, different types of tunas, why not make them for Tilefish. I also believe that wreckfish should be separate from our Grouper limit. How can "they" say that a wreckfish should count for our Grouper limit when they are in the Sea Bass family.

Jim, you are right about the less than 1% of Groupers caught coastwide are landed in VA. That's pretty pitiful for them to say we are overfishing these fish, when they really don't have ANY evidence. Like I said, we just keep taking it and taking it with these regulations. When will it stop. I agree also that the VMRC in a whole needs to be revamped. When the first round of Gouper/Weckfish and Tilefish limits came out, one of the commissioners said they didn't even know what a Tilefish was. How can somebody like that speak or even began to represent us. Our fishery management so far as VMRC sucks!!



Somebody asked what is CCA's position? Good luck on getting a straight answer from them. This is a tough issue and CCA has a history of just backing away or going with the flow on "Hard Issues". I go back to the Cobia regulations when all the controversy was going on, the CCA was alot bigger then and one of there big members Larry Synder kept putting pictures up during his presentation at the VMRC meeting of all these Cobia on the dock at Wallace's and saying people were slaying these fish and so on. When Harry Johnson, owner and operator of Wallace's Bait and Tackle at the time stood up and started his presentation, he showed a picture of Larry Synder with a 70 plus pound Cobia hanging under the sign. Just an example of how these guys work. Enough on the CCA.

I would also like to hear the answer to what Warbird-7 asked, "According to the audio presented by Joe Grist, VMRC Fisheries Management, he
states that 2 yrs. ago when the first tilefish limits went into effect that the Va.
Charterboat industry supported a 3 fish limit for Tilefish. Just who (Charter Captains)
is he referring to that supported this?"
This guy Grist is a joke. I would love to hear the answer to this one. I don't see to many charter boats Captains on here saying that.

Jake, so why can't VA tell them to pack sand? Is that because we have bent over so many times they think we will continue to. If so that's sad. Why does the SE even care about US here in VA. If we only account for 1% of Grouper caught coastwide. Doesn't really make sense. Think they need to look into the Maryland boats fishing these waters.

One last thing, what day and time is this meeting? Thanks. ChrisB

Chris,
Please keep me posted on the meeting......date & time.

Mike-Red Eye
24 Topaz

[cea]

like i said before the computer and a gps killed this fishery LOOK WHAT I CAUGHT now iam gonna put it terms we can all understand SHUT THE F$@K UP the EVIL EMPIRE watches this site

[Chris Boyce]

Just talked with Rick Caton, he is under the South Atlantic Council down there in NC. He says watch out for these people, they will ruin the fishery!! They are getting ready to do it down there with there red snapper fishery.
I asked him what there regulations for Grouper and Tilefish were. He said they are allowed 1 Snowy per person per day (no boat limit) and 5 Tilefish per person per day. They also have other limits for different groupers such as red, gag and so on.
If that's North Carolina's regs. which are made from the South Atlantic Council why are they trying to tell the Mid-Atlantic and VMRC to impose crazy limits like 1 Grouper per boat per day and 3 tilefish per person. Doesn't make any sense

Mike- I will buddy, I am going to try and make it. Even if it's during the work day.

[Darren]

Just a few facts for every one to consider.

Golden tiles, blue line tiles and sand tiles are all in the same family-Malacanthidae. However they are not generally caught in the same locations. Blue lines are normally on a hard bottom and can be caught from 200 ft depths on out. Goldens are usually on a soft bottom, and I have never caught one shallower than 400 feet or so. Sand tiles tend to be a lot shallower, and as far as I know, no one has caught one out of Va. The SAFMC limits you to one golden per day, and both the goldens and blue lines are lumped into the 5 per day aggregate grouper limit.

Wreckfish are in the family Polyprionidae. There are sea bass in this family, but they are the giant sea basses caught of the west coast, not our black sea bass. About the only other recreational fish in this family that I recognize are Hapukas. Wreck fish retention is not allowed in the SAFMC regulated area. However there is a commercial fishery alive and well. Some one please correct me if I am wrong but I believe part of the Magnusson-Stevenson act states that there will be an equitable sharing of the resource between the commercial and recreational fisheries, and that the fishery has to be maintained sustainable. So exactly where is the equity in that regulation? All of the documented wreckfish caught off of Va have been juveniles. I think the oldest one may have been 5, and most were 3 years or less. I don;t know if there are olders ones around, or maybe some of the mystery bites we get and break off could have been larger ones, but these things do get big, over 200 lbs worth of big. I think they are probably around, but that no one has hit the right area and deep enough to catch a 100 lber or better. 150 lbers are not uncommon to the south of us, but again they are fishing deeper water.

Black seabass and groupers are both in the family Serranidae. Does anyone think it would be appropriate to manage these species together just because they are in the same family? I'm not even going to try and regurgitate the mess of regulation concerning the groupers that the SAMFC uses, but here's the link if anyone is curious: http://www.safmc.net/Portals/6/Library/Recregs.pdf .

As far as the original meetings in Va to set limits, I believe I attended everyone of those. As far as charter captains, there was Steve Wray, Jim Brincefield and Jake Hiles. There might have been more but I don't recall them. I can tell you that not one of them offered to accept a 3 fish limit. The original proposal was a 10 fish tile limit, and three groupers, which was also opposed. When it got in front of the VMRC it was changed. I also recall a very nice presentation being given about the fishery here in Va. Most of which was excerpts and pictures from reports originally posted here on Tidalfish which heavily featured the Jill Carrie.

For those of you that don't know it or didn't catch it earlier in this thread, charter boats and commercial boats are required to report their catch when they land, by species, number and approximate weight. Now it doesn't matter where you caught those fish, only where they are being landed. Strangely enough, 2 years ago, no one could produce anything that said any tilefish or groupers had ever been landed in Va. That's pretty strange since I know for a fact that Jim Brincefield and Joe DelCampo had both filed reports with those species on them. Strange that no one could produce this data, that is supposed to be used to help manage the fishery. The other problem with this reporting system is that it does not take into account where these fish are caught, only where they are reported landed. So I could sail out of New Jersey or Maryland, come down off of Virginia and catch my 10,000 lb quota of sea bass and all the groupers and blue lines tiles I can carry and land them back in Jersey and it looks like they were all harvested from up there. That's almost like double dipping. You get your fish and make your money, but don't hurt your stocks at all.

I am also surprised no one has mentioned the fact that Virginia is trying to regulate a fishery that falls outside of it's state waters. None of these fish are caught inside 3 miles. Take a look at the Virginia State regs and show me any other species that is EXCLUSIVELY caught outside of three miles on there. Now of course the state can regulate what is landed here, but for all other species they choose to abide by Federal Regulations that are already in place. Why the difference with tiles, groupers and wreck fish?

I am going to get off the soap box for now, but hopefully there are a few things in here to get some people thinking.

[Chumlord]

Well whatever Jake your personal attacks don't really bother me they just show you are grasping at straws. Why would you say I don't know anything I speak about, what is the point of that? I'm now famous for talking about things I know nothing about, that makes no sense. I don't have time to talk about things I know nothing about. Coming from a Charter boat captain... Anyway at the end of my fishing day I look in my fish boxes and if there is enough meat for a meal or two and we had fun it's all good. You on the other hand look in your fish boxes and hope your customers want to come back. A fundamental difference. Whether to change the limit now is a matter of opinion you feel it will hurt your business and I feel it can't hurt the fishery. You care as much about my job as I do yours. I'm not offended, pissed or aggravated after all it's only fishing... it's my hobby.

[Chris Boyce]

Good points Darren. Like I was saying, if you listen to the audio of Joe Grist from the VMRC. He says in there about the charter boat captains 2 years ago supporting a 3 fish limit on Tilefish. Not making this up, just listen to the audio. Something is wrong here if he is saying this and no charterboats did support that, don't you think.
Darren- I understand Bluelines, Sands and Goldens are in the same family but why group them together in a limit? They are caught in different areas and different bottoms. Look at Red and Black Drum, they are in the same family but you have different regulations for each fish. Just like Yellowfin and Bluefin Tuna, we have different regulations for them. Just think it makes sense to a separate regulations for different fish.

[Darren]

Good points Darren. Like I was saying, if you listen to the audio of Joe Grist from the VMRC. He says in there about the charter boat captains 2 years ago supporting a 3 fish limit on Tilefish. Not making this up, just listen to the audio. Something is wrong here if he is saying this and no charterboats did support that, don't you think.
Darren- I understand Bluelines, Sands and Goldens are in the same family but why group them together in a limit? They are caught in different areas and different bottoms. Look at Red and Black Drum, they are in the same family but you have different regulations for each fish. Just like Yellowfin and Bluefin Tuna, we have different regulations for them. Just think it makes sense to a separate regulations for different fish.

I don't know where Joe Grist got that from. I suppose you could dig through the archives and find the audio and see if he was right. If anyone was pushing that number it might have been the CCA. I don't think even Staff was looking for something that low.

As far as species, that was my point. It makes no sense to try and manage several fish together just because they are in the same family, much less fish that aren't.

[Chris Boyce]

Darren, yeah I just don't see any charter captains saying that. That would just hurt them. I think this guy Grist is over his head talking about these issues.
You are right, it doesn't make any sense to try and manage several fish together just because they are in the same family. Hopefully something good with come out of this meeting, but I have my doubts.

Again, what is the date and time for the public commet on this? Thanks

[Peddler]

Well guys, i've tried to stay out of this because i'm not a Virginia resident anymore but i just cant help but chime in and repeat what i've been saying all along. This is yet another case of one user group (south atlantic) trying to take something away from another user group (mid atlantic). The southern states have been leaders in overconservation and now they're tyring to push it on us. This issue is far reaching and is an attack by self righteous "conservationists" that are only interested in their own user groups. I will continue to promote the peaceful sharing of the resource by all user groups regardless of who i offend. ALL fishermen are under attack and we must come together to preserve our right to hunt and fish.

[Darren]

Again, what is the date and time for the public commet on this? Thanks

Public Notice: Proposed Amendments to various Regulations (http://www.mrc.state.va.us/Notices/pn_multi0509.shtm)

[goose70]

Just a few facts for every one to consider.

Golden tiles, blue line tiles and sand tiles are all in the same family-Malacanthidae. However they are not generally caught in the same locations. Blue lines are normally on a hard bottom and can be caught from 200 ft depths on out. Goldens are usually on a soft bottom, and I have never caught one shallower than 400 feet or so. Sand tiles tend to be a lot shallower, and as far as I know, no one has caught one out of Va. The SAFMC limits you to one golden per day, and both the goldens and blue lines are lumped into the 5 per day aggregate grouper limit.

Wreckfish are in the family Polyprionidae. There are sea bass in this family, but they are the giant sea basses caught of the west coast, not our black sea bass. About the only other recreational fish in this family that I recognize are Hapukas. Wreck fish retention is not allowed in the SAFMC regulated area. However there is a commercial fishery alive and well. Some one please correct me if I am wrong but I believe part of the Magnusson-Stevenson act states that there will be an equitable sharing of the resource between the commercial and recreational fisheries, and that the fishery has to be maintained sustainable. So exactly where is the equity in that regulation? All of the documented wreckfish caught off of Va have been juveniles. I think the oldest one may have been 5, and most were 3 years or less. I don;t know if there are olders ones around, or maybe some of the mystery bites we get and break off could have been larger ones, but these things do get big, over 200 lbs worth of big. I think they are probably around, but that no one has hit the right area and deep enough to catch a 100 lber or better. 150 lbers are not uncommon to the south of us, but again they are fishing deeper water.

Black seabass and groupers are both in the family Serranidae. Does anyone think it would be appropriate to manage these species together just because they are in the same family? I'm not even going to try and regurgitate the mess of regulation concerning the groupers that the SAMFC uses, but here's the link if anyone is curious: http://www.safmc.net/Portals/6/Library/Recregs.pdf .

As far as the original meetings in Va to set limits, I believe I attended everyone of those. As far as charter captains, there was Steve Wray, Jim Brincefield and Jake Hiles. There might have been more but I don't recall them. I can tell you that not one of them offered to accept a 3 fish limit. The original proposal was a 10 fish tile limit, and three groupers, which was also opposed. When it got in front of the VMRC it was changed. I also recall a very nice presentation being given about the fishery here in Va. Most of which was excerpts and pictures from reports originally posted here on Tidalfish which heavily featured the Jill Carrie.

For those of you that don't know it or didn't catch it earlier in this thread, charter boats and commercial boats are required to report their catch when they land, by species, number and approximate weight. Now it doesn't matter where you caught those fish, only where they are being landed. Strangely enough, 2 years ago, no one could produce anything that said any tilefish or groupers had ever been landed in Va. That's pretty strange since I know for a fact that Jim Brincefield and Joe DelCampo had both filed reports with those species on them. Strange that no one could produce this data, that is supposed to be used to help manage the fishery. The other problem with this reporting system is that it does not take into account where these fish are caught, only where they are reported landed. So I could sail out of New Jersey or Maryland, come down off of Virginia and catch my 10,000 lb quota of sea bass and all the groupers and blue lines tiles I can carry and land them back in Jersey and it looks like they were all harvested from up there. That's almost like double dipping. You get your fish and make your money, but don't hurt your stocks at all.

I am also surprised no one has mentioned the fact that Virginia is trying to regulate a fishery that falls outside of it's state waters. None of these fish are caught inside 3 miles. Take a look at the Virginia State regs and show me any other species that is EXCLUSIVELY caught outside of three miles on there. Now of course the state can regulate what is landed here, but for all other species they choose to abide by Federal Regulations that are already in place. Why the difference with tiles, groupers and wreck fish?

I am going to get off the soap box for now, but hopefully there are a few things in here to get some people thinking.

very informative post. Thanks.

One thing that struck me last night, as someone who almost exclusively fishes the mid-Chesapeake, is the incredible scale difference between just the mid-Atlantic offshore and the entire Chesapeake. With offshore, we're talking about an area so large that we'll probably never have a great grasp on what is down there.

[cuhollow]

JIM, fomerly of Jill Carrie...........dont think for a minute that you guys have landed 20 out of the top 25 groupers caught off Va. MANY MANY fish are caught and never talked about. I would bet my house that over the years I have caught at least 20 fish bigger than your best.......And I am only one boat.



Now 20 world records is impressive! Commercial hook and liner? Maybe you should consider a charter business....

[MeOff]

Anyone that is serious about these reg.'s should be at:
2600 Washington Ave. Newport News Va. at 12:00 NOON. May 26'2009
AGAIN rather than the name calling and comparing who is the best in this fishery; WE are much better off attacking this issue as a well informed GROUP. Everyone has their own Agenda but all of the Agendas are in jeopardy if this Ridiculous recommendation becomes law.
If this is as stated before as a done deal and we are wasting our time so be it; I'M GOING TO GO AND WASTE MY TIME.

[Capt. Joe]

I dont have an agenda........Yes I am a commercial fisherman, charter boat captain and recreational fisherman. I use gill nets fish pots electric reels. I had crank and jig, live bait and troll, cast and chum. Jjoe

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

I stand corrected, Capt. Joe. I was not privy to any of the large Groupers you have caught so I did not include them in my list. I was only trying to make a point, not brag in any way. I had seen the large Groupers caught by Dr. Neill (including his IGFA World Records) and I had seen the ones that Capt. Skip Feller posted, so those are the ones I knew about. Shoot, when we first started to catch Wreckfish we thought they were Groupers - so I surely am STILL learning!

Gentlemen, we are wasting our energies arguing here. Please attend the meeting and let your voice be heard. If you can't make the meeting, then please file written comments. I will try and nail down further information and will post it here so anyone wanting to comment may.

And if they do, in fact, pass these regulations you can join in on our class action lawsuit against the VMRC. I have 31 fishermen signed up so far (including those that responded here). I have whittled down the pool of attorneys to 6. So now we just have to pick the right one. We will have all of the paperwork ready to file against the VMRC and the Commissioners the day of the hearing and I will advise the Commissioners of our intentions in my comments.

[captdon]

Im in favor of the lawsuit. Those guys at vmrc are out of control. We need to banned together on this one and many more issues. I will give you a call jim

[Mike McCabe]

Well whatever Jake your personal attacks don't really bother me they just show you are grasping at straws. Why would you say I don't know anything I speak about, what is the point of that? I'm now famous for talking about things I know nothing about, that makes no sense. I don't have time to talk about things I know nothing about. Coming from a Charter boat captain... Anyway at the end of my fishing day I look in my fish boxes and if there is enough meat for a meal or two and we had fun it's all good. You on the other hand look in your fish boxes and hope your customers want to come back. A fundamental difference. Whether to change the limit now is a matter of opinion you feel it will hurt your business and I feel it can't hurt the fishery. You care as much about my job as I do yours. I'm not offended, pissed or aggravated after all it's only fishing... it's my hobby.

FAMOUS ?????:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


Mike-Red Eye
24 Topaz

[captdon]

Lou , i kind of shocked about your response. We all that can go offshore fishing and have boats that can go,,,,,, spend 100k+ on a boat + another 10k to 20 k on tackle , rods, etc,( or more). All for a hobby, to be able to fish in one of the greatest fishery in the world. This is a new fishery that gives us a something to fish for offshore in the winter time ( maybe 2 to 3 times due to weather and work). For one guy that has no voting rights on the south atlantic council wants to impose to the mid atlantic council ( because they have over fished their region due to better sea conditions and wether that we dont have up north) and some dumb ass name joe grist that works for vmrc that has no idea that we are catching the babies (and that is including our world record groupers that he didnt tell the board at vmrc meeting that was caught off our va boarders ) and that we have miles and miles and miles to catch these kind of fish ( not only the norfolk canyon) and that the rec. Fisherman catch less then 1/2 percent and that the longliners from nc. Va. And md catch 10 times more as a by catch .( i wonder if they every get caught because i have never heard of any vmr police catch anybody any longliner yet). I would think that you would rally behind everybody and speak out against this. I think that the rules that vmrc has right now are fair and safe for our great new fishery that we as rec. Fisherman have only had for the last 1 1/2 years. I hope that all the people that are concern about this great new fishery will not stick there head in the sand and come out and suport our cause and come to the may 26th meeting .thanks don

[racn35]

To unsubscribe from this thread, please visit this page:
http://www.tidalfish.com/forums/subscription.php?do=removesubscription&type=thread

[Chumlord]

Don:
I am not saying I agree with a one Grouper per boat per day limit or a 3 per person per day Tilefish limit I am simply saying that if the VMRC wants to reduce the limits in an effort to preserve these fisheries until such a time when a scientific study can either prove or disprove overfishing is occurring and then change the limits appropriately again I would support that. In reality I think the proposed limits are a bit unreasonable but I am not in favor of charter boat captains lobbying to leave the limits the way they are just so their business can do well. In my opinion the VMRC and charter boat captains are reacting the same way just on opposite sides of the coin. Charter boat captains are overreacting because they want to take as many people out to the canyon, catch as many fish as possible and post the pictures all over the internet because it's cheap advertising and it's good for business... period. The VMRC wants to preserve the fishery and the are proposing ridiculous limits. Kinda like the NRA vs. liberals who want to ban all gun ownership. The NRA thinks we should issue Charles Manson an AK-47 when he gets out on parole and the anti-gun activists want the country to stop manufacturing guns all together. I don't agree with either. In our situation I believe there is undoubtably some middle ground that won't hurt the charter businesses too bad and help preserve these valuable fisheries.

[cea]

:surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surre nder::surrender::surrender::surrender: iam done with this topic i wll leave you with this the computer gps and chestpounders killed this fishery i miss the old days when you had a fishing report you used the phone and not a cell phone

[Mike McCabe]

:surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surre nder::surrender::surrender::surrender: iam done with this topic i wll leave you with this the computer gps and chestpounders killed this fishery i miss the old days when you had a fishing report you used the phone and not a cell phone

AMEN BROTHER.......AMEN
:rolleyes:

Mike-Red Eye
24 Topaz

[capt. jakeg]

Don:
I am not saying I agree with a one Grouper per boat per day limit or a 3 per person per day Tilefish limit I am simply saying that if the VMRC wants to reduce the limits in an effort to preserve these fisheries until such a time when a scientific study can either prove or disprove overfishing is occurring and then change the limits appropriately again I would support that. In reality I think the proposed limits are a bit unreasonable but I am not in favor of charter boat captains lobbying to leave the limits the way they are just so their business can do well. In my opinion the VMRC and charter boat captains are reacting the same way just on opposite sides of the coin. Charter boat captains are overreacting because they want to take as many people out to the canyon, catch as many fish as possible and post the pictures all over the internet because it's cheap advertising and it's good for business... period. The VMRC wants to preserve the fishery and the are proposing ridiculous limits. Kinda like the NRA vs. liberals who want to ban all gun ownership. The NRA thinks we should issue Charles Manson an AK-47 when he gets out on parole and the anti-gun activists want the country to stop manufacturing guns all together. I don't agree with either. In our situation I believe there is undoubtably some middle ground that won't hurt the charter businesses too bad and help preserve these valuable fisheries.

Once again talking about something you know absolutely nothing about. We are reacting because the fishery is not being overfished and we (not just the charter captains but all virginia fishermen, recreational and commercial) are being punished. The charter captains and commercial fishermen are being screwed out of our living for no good reason.

HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS FISHERY OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE READ OFF THE INTERNET? Your arguement is that the internet is what is ruining this fishery, but fishermen like you with no actual fishing experience or real time out there are exactly what you are talking against. You are the prime example of Joe Schmo from Illinois who buys a boat and uses the internet to learn to fish. I dont have a problem with people learning how to fish off the net, but now you are saying that is a problem? Us posting on the net is a problem? Or are you saying its only a problem when charter captains post pictures flaunting their catch over the net, but its ok when you do it? When some asshole hollers over the radio all day long like he is some kind of superstar or something or makes an internet site where he pretends to teach people to fish to give himself some sort of wierd satisfaction or sense of accomplishment, that is completely different than when charter captains do it?

How about this, the charter captains (and the recreational anglers who have actually done deep dropping more than once) will stick to what we know, and while we do that why dont you stick to what you know, whenever you figure out what that is. Until then the regulations are fine as they are and you should just put your foot in your mouth for the first time ever.

[Mike McCabe]

Once again talking about something you know absolutely nothing about. We are reacting because the fishery is not being overfished and we (not just the charter captains but all virginia fishermen, recreational and commercial) are being punished. The charter captains and commercial fishermen are being screwed out of our living for no good reason.

HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS FISHERY OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE READ OFF THE INTERNET? Your arguement is that the internet is what is ruining this fishery, but fishermen like you with no actual fishing experience or real time out there are exactly what you are talking against. You are the prime example of Joe Schmo from Illinois who buys a boat and uses the internet to learn to fish. I dont have a problem with people learning how to fish off the net, but now you are saying that is a problem? Us posting on the net is a problem? Or are you saying its only a problem when charter captains post pictures flaunting their catch over the net, but its ok when you do it? When some asshole hollers over the radio all day long like he is some kind of superstar or something or makes an internet site where he pretends to teach people to fish to give himself some sort of wierd satisfaction or sense of accomplishment, that is completely different than when charter captains do it?

How about this, the charter captains (and the recreational anglers who have actually done deep dropping more than once) will stick to what we know, and while we do that why dont you stick to what you know, whenever you figure out what that is. Until then the regulations are fine as they are and you should just put your foot in your mouth for the first time ever.

DAAAYUUUMMM:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:

Mike-Red Eye
24 Topaz

[captdon]

Lou , you are right and i was wrong. I sent most of yesterday talking with members of the mid atlantic and southern atlantic councils and people at virginia , north carolina and maryland marine resource commissions.

Vmrc and the mid atlantic council is trying to help us keep this new fishery for the sport fisherman. We need to keep this in mind that we are fishing in federal waters and that the southern council is responsible for the stock piles of grouper and tile fish for the east coast.

The real problem lies with the southern council and some of the southern states not dealing with this problem sooner ( like 20 years ago )..
You can ask any florida fisherman and ask him if grouper fishing is as good as it was 20 years ago and he will tell you no.


The other problem is the way the feds get there scientific data on fishing stocks. Going to boat ramps and calling on the phone to ask what you caught and then multiple it , we all know the old way was not scientific at all


well now guess what. As it seems with talking with feds yesterday , they are relying on fishing reports on the internet to collet data , and also igfa records and state records on citaions and mostly what head boats catch and i say again mostly what head boats catch . We all know that this is not scientific data


i myself will continue to post on message boards ,because i think they are a great source of info for us as a fisherman ,,, but i will no longer put how many fish i caught or take a photo of all the fish that i caught laying out on the pier , or say[ key words and i say again key words] like i killed them or i slayed or i caught 10 of this or etc etc etc , that might be able to be picked up by some type of new software set up, that the feds have.

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

Well Don, they are either lying to you on the phone or lying to you on their web site, take your pick:

From VMRC's web site at this link:
http://www.mrc.state.va.us/fmac/fmoverview.shtm


"The Fisheries Management Division carries out current and long-term State policies effecting saltwater fisheries--recreational and commercial in Virginia's tidal waters. The Division's goal is to provide the maximum benefit and long-term use of the Commonwealth's finfish and shellfish resources through conservation and enhancement. Its objectives are: 1) to collect comprehensive and timely statistics and information on Virginia's fisheries to determine fishery stock conditions; 2) to develop fisheries management plans for commercially and recreationally important species found in Virginia waters; 3) to promote recreational fishing activity by the development of artificial fishing reefs and the Virginia Saltwater Fishing Tournament; and 4) to participate in organizations at the interstate and federal level regarding Virginia's fisheries and their management.

The Division's Fisheries Plans and Statistics Department monitors Virginia's finfish and shellfish fisheries and provides this information for management purposes.

Fishermen report daily harvest monthly. Oyster data are gathered from a mandatory Oyster Tax and Harvest Reporting system. These data are entered into computers in the Plans/Statistics office where they can be quickly sorted and retrieved to help in decision making or to respond to data requests from individuals, universities, or other resource management agencies. The Plans/Statistics staff has developed many computer databases for the Marine Fisheries Statistics System, and is participating in the setting up of the federal Northeast Marine Fisheries Information System.

The Plans/Statistics section is also responsible for the development of fisheries management plans which provide strategic, long*term management recommendations for Virginia's marine fish species. The criteria for setting priorities for fishery management plan development are status of the stock, status of knowledge of the species, and landings volume and value. These plans are based on the best biological and socioeconomic information available."

Says everything EXCEPT what they told you on the phone, doesn't it?

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

Ya know what's also strange, the SAFMC doesn't seem to mention any of the methods they told you on the phone either, Don. Wooey - they have an acronym for collecting their data (SEDAR) and TF ain't one of them! Nor is citations. Nor is headboat watching. Seems kinda like there's a pattern here, no?

Here is the link:
SEDAR Stock Assessment Process (http://www.safmc.net/SEDAR/tabid/423/Default.aspx)

The Southeast Data, Assessment, and Review or SEDAR process is a multi-step method for examining stock assessments. The process includes data collectors, biologists, fishermen, database managers, stock assessment biologists, Council members and staff throughout each stage. These assessments are used to determine needed management measures. The SEDAR process is utilized by fishery managers in the South Atlantic, Caribbean, and Gulf of Mexico. All workshops are open to the public.

SEDAR Fact Sheet (PDF)

The SEDAR process includes three steps:

1. Data Workshop - key people involved in collecting, keeping, and maintaining the data, biologists who understand the species, and experienced fishermen are brought together. Workshop participants research and review all data available, determine what data should be used for the assessment, and what data and research is still needed.

2. Stock Assessment Workshop - stock assessment biologists, scientists, and fishermen meet to determine what tools are to be used to formulate the stock assessment, how to interpret information from the assessment, and how uncertainty is to be incorporated into the assessment.

3. Peer Review - the products of steps one and two is a stock assessment report. This report is peer reviewed by the Review Committee, a group of independent experts. The Review Committee then formulates its conclusions and recommendations in a final consensus report and an advisory report that includes strenghts and weaknesses in the assessment and recommendations to fishery managers for future data and research needs.

For additional information, including up to date document listings, and the SEDAR Stock Assessment schedule, visit the SEDAR homepage.

Note: SEDAR 19 - South Atlantic Red Grouper, Gulf and South Atlantic Black Grouper - Data Workshop Scheduled for June 22-26, 2009 in North Charleston, SC. For a complete schedule and meeting location details, see the SEDAR Schedule posted below.

Download current SEDAR schedule (PDF) (as of February 2009)

[captdon]

Jim I want to thank you for the effort that you are putting in this and I will be there to help and support you as this effects me to, I sell fishing tackle for deep drops and this will knock out some of the lures that I sell ,and also as a sport fisherman I would hate to drive my boat 9o miles each way to catch one grouper and a few tile fish. I agree with what you say in the above but I felt it was very strange of what they said and new about the different message boards on the internet .The southern counsel wants to close it past the 240 feet line and that will knock out all of va. And most of nc and all of md. But the guys in florida can still fish for them because the grouper are closer in shore . That not very fair for us in the mid atlantic states. The states down south or the southern counsel should have done something years ago .
But as it seem, to me as I was talking to the voting members on the fed side yesterday, that it apears they read alot of what goes on here and other message boards up and down the east coast. One of them told me that maui is being looked at hard. Im still shaking my head on that one. As I said I will, I will ,I will , post on message boards, but I will not say how many fish I caught or post a photo of a bunch of fish. Jim I know that you have to report what is caught on your head boat but some of them talked about photos on the net. Not one report was brought up in our conversations. Very strange
The mid atlantic should counsel itself and southern counsel itself and the northern counsel itself. l That is what needs to be changed and by what the voting members on the mid atlantic are trying to do this so they say and who knows Jim they could be lying to me

[Capt. Jim Brincefield]

Q: "You know when a fisheries regulator is lying to you?"
A: "When he says on the phone - we're trying to help you keep this new fishery for the sport fisherman".

Trying to take a breath and be a bit humourous here...

In my opinion, VMRC is cowering to some real pressure from SAFMC - the outfit that ruined this fishery for their waters over the past 30 years. VA needs to say "pound sand" and then take a proactive stance to help us fight to have the MAFMC manage our fishery (like all other fishes in our waters - except Wahoo - and that's another story).

I've been spending an incredible amount of time and energy on this fight today. Many more facts will come out upon further study and investigation. I've made F.O.I.A requests to get the facts in writing. Our suit may well end up being both a state and a federal one in that regard. As usual, there is a lot of politics involved. We'll certainly get to the bottom of it all and fight the best fight we can. Sure, we lost 2 years ago, but we have lived to fight another day!

[captdon]

Jim you were right. I just caught one in a lie and i think he has a personal agenda. Why i dont know. I have been woking on this also today . I will give you a call

[Chumlord]

Once again talking about something you know absolutely nothing about. We are reacting because the fishery is not being overfished and we (not just the charter captains but all virginia fishermen, recreational and commercial) are being punished. The charter captains and commercial fishermen are being screwed out of our living for no good reason.

HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS FISHERY OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE READ OFF THE INTERNET? Your arguement is that the internet is what is ruining this fishery, but fishermen like you with no actual fishing experience or real time out there are exactly what you are talking against. You are the prime example of Joe Schmo from Illinois who buys a boat and uses the internet to learn to fish. I dont have a problem with people learning how to fish off the net, but now you are saying that is a problem? Us posting on the net is a problem? Or are you saying its only a problem when charter captains post pictures flaunting their catch over the net, but its ok when you do it? When some asshole hollers over the radio all day long like he is some kind of superstar or something or makes an internet site where he pretends to teach people to fish to give himself some sort of wierd satisfaction or sense of accomplishment, that is completely different than when charter captains do it?

How about this, the charter captains (and the recreational anglers who have actually done deep dropping more than once) will stick to what we know, and while we do that why dont you stick to what you know, whenever you figure out what that is. Until then the regulations are fine as they are and you should just put your foot in your mouth for the first time ever.

First off Jake, my response was addressed to Don which is indicated by the word "Don" at the beginning of my reply. But since you chimed in I would like to know a few things one in particular... how the hell did you know I was from Illinois???

Where is your scientific data proving that these fisheries are not being over fished?

When did I ever say the internet is ruining these fisheries. I am having a hard time following you Jake. Here is the quote taken from my reply to Don:

"Charter boat captains are overreacting because they want to take as many people out to the canyon, catch as many fish as possible and post the pictures all over the internet because it's cheap advertising and it's good for business... period."

I never said posting pics was ruining the fishery, but I maintain the above statement as true. I'm not even saying I blame charter boat captains for posting pics hell it's cheap advertisement... I GET IT... BELIEVE ME I GET IT. Furthermore this is the primary point of your argument right??? What is good for your business.

Now on to learning off the internet I never said the learning from internet was ruining the fishery additionally, not a whole lot can be learned from a picture of a person holding a Grouper on a charter boat. It is advertisement... again... I GET IT!!!

In reality it seems as if you are the one who takes offense to people who utilize all resources available (including the internet) to become a better fisherman. How did you learn to fish? I can only surmise from your reply you've learned everything you know COMPLETELY ON YOUR OWN and give nobody any credit for ever helping in any way whatsoever right? You didn't learn anything from anybody from any source including the internet. You have never read a book or magazine or watched a video or podcast (LOL) to learn a new knot or visited a fellow charter captain's web site or even called them for a report. You do it all on your own.

It almost sounds as if you are a bit jealous of my website. I believe it has helped many people catch more fish and that is precisely the point of my site. I like to share the knowledge that was passed on to me. Unlike you I give credit to everyone who has ever helped me. Sometimes that credit comes in the form of a video, an article, a podcast or even a garage seminar but in reality it is in fact helping others catch fish and I personally would find it flattering if someone distributed a tip I gave them on their website. Of course I have nothing to offer an expert fisherman like you, but believe it or not there are still those of us out there who believe that you can't learn anything new if you already know it all... and those are the people who visit my site and I sincerely hope it helps them.

Jake, you and I will obviously never see eye to eye because our interests lie at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. You need to make money off fishing and I just fish for fun.

No hard feeling Jake, be cool!!

I still want to know how the devil did you know I was from Illinois????? LOL!!!!