Trolling BIRDS in offshore spreads

[northernguy]

OFFSHORE BIRDS!!!!
Hi Guys:
Just got back from a few days of offshore fishing. Most of the hits and catch were on rigs with BIRDS out in front.
I have attached ( SWMBO did it 'cause I can't) some pictures showing why I put BIRDS out in front of trolled lures.
Look at the pictures aand you'll see how BIRDS react on the water. I have three(3) close up of a
Black, Chartruse, Green bird. I have them working on a straight troll and another picture on a curve NEXT to the propwash. PERFECT positioning for trolled lures for me.
I firmly believe that the ADDITION of a BIRD, any BIRD, will help you get more fish UP into your spread, AND more importantly keep them there for multiple hookups.
For YFT, I found that putting a lure as close to the chine wake was the key for me.
For BFT, I found that back in the 3rd-5th wake wave work best and a slower troll, but I guess, you all knew that already.
It's certainly nice to get home with lots of fillets in your cooler. Now get out there and :
Wackm 'N Stackm
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner
PS:
All the birds were on the FRONT of each WAKE WAVE while the lures rode in the next wake wave. I also found that
when I ran a jet behind a BIRD, I had to keep the jet WAY to the OUTSIDE of the propwash. On spreader bars, I would position the BIRD/jet combo BEHIND and OUTSIDE of the spreader bar. Why? I don't know. I do know, it out performed being put
between the spreader bar and the prop wash.
For me that was the best presentation on both boats that I was on.
Where do you place all your lures?
Do any use BIRDS?
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[27 sailfish]

I like a 12 inch Boone bird for the WWWWWFB line. Most times a Green Machine is the lure.

I've done OK with smaller birds in close. Nothing else they are cool to watch.

Thanks for posting the tips/photos :thumbup:.

[lmontagnaj]

I've been using play action birds for a lot of years now and they flat out RAISE SOME FISH!!!

I loaned one out last year at the dock and got back a shredded leader, a big ole Blue one TORE IT UP!!!

Great Pics...

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

Yep; We have boated plenty of big Tuna on RDTKL bird rigs
http://reeldraggintackle.com/images/Fish%20Pictures/100_0352sm.png

[northernguy]

Hi 27 Sailfish:
Interesting that you use a 12 inch bird.
YOU may have something going. I was down of the West coast of Central America fishing on a guys boat. I FORGOT to bring BIRDS....AARRGGHHHHHH. I ended up going to the local "VILLAGE" and asking the local "CARPENTERS" to make one up for me. What a
HOOT that was. Anyway, he made up a 9inch and a 14 inch bird OUT of CEDAR. BOTH worked just great. I did notice for that 5 day fishing for YFT, the smaller bird really worked. For MARLIN and SAILS the BIGGER, THE BETTER. Y?I figure bigger bait means BIGGER PREDATOR.
Down here in Florida out of Canaveral, it's the smaller birds that produce on TUNA. I'll ask the charter guys what size they use for Marlin and for TUNA. Lots of guys now goto"THE OTHER SIDE" to chase YFT. Most like smaller version as they CHASE the REAL birds that are sitting/hovering over the fast moving schools of Tuna. I guess running and trying to get a 12+ incher out and working was a pain in the AXX.
I'm going up to NOVA SCOTIA and NEWFOUNDLAND in a few weeks to run some boats for GBFT and HALIBUT. Since I make my own birds, I'll bring them. With a tail attached, they ONLY go 9 inches in length. I"LL make soime 12+ inchers up and I'll let you know how they do up in Canada.
WACKM 'N STACKM
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[northernguy]

WOW:
GREAT picture of that TUNA and the BIRDS.

WACKM 'N STACKM
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[PlaynHooky]

We fish the RDT bird rigs and they FLAT OUT CATCH!!!

[northernguy]

I tweek mine up a bit. In your pictures, it appears that you run a short leader from the bird to the lure.True?
Wackm 'N Stackm
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[PlaynHooky]

I run them varying distances, but that rig you see there is a RDT set up straight out of the bag.......I did have to shorten it about 18" after that sail and two mahi were done with it!!!

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

Ancient Mariner; We like to keep our leaders short, it has worked very well with our tackle & rigging. Florida Saltwater Sportsman coined those jet/bird combo rigs the "Draggin' Slayers" when they tested them off Fl a few years ago. We have rigged them with 72 inch and 52 inch leaders over a two year test. The 52 inch leader had out caught the 72, so thats all we make today. They are earning a reputation for taking Bill and Mahi inparticular.

[PlaynHooky]

Thanks for the exact measurement Ken! Now the secrets out!! Keep making that fine tackle! We love it and the smiles it helps put on our customers faces!

[northernguy]

Gotcha!
If you run the lure at that distance, it will work. GOOD ON YAH MATE.

I like to put a three(3) T'ZER setup on the mainline of each lure. THat way with or without a bird, that three(3) T'ZER setup appears like a small baitball running ,scared witless. The Bird just adds another part to the whole setup I belive in. After all I used this system as a commercial pin hooker for a heck of a lot of years.
As in fishing, a lot of systems will work. It's how you place them in your spread and how you work them.

WACKM 'N STACKM
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

Gotcha!
I like to put a three(3) T'ZER setup on the mainline of each lure. THat way with or without a bird, that three(3) T'ZER setup appears like a small baitball running ,scared witless. The Bird just adds another part to the whole setup I belive in. After all I used this system as a commercial pin hooker for a heck of a lot of years.

I am with ya on that Mariner. Our bird bars and bird daisy chains are some of our best catching rigs. The Big Eye in picture was on a bird chain. The rig had four RDTKL Slammer Teasers followed by a stinger a little further back. The little bird/jet combos are a hot ticket because of the action of the bird and the smoke trail left by the multi-port concave jet head. It generates some serious smoke!
http://reeldraggintackle.com/images/Jet%20Heads/JETS%20CU.jpg

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

As in fishing, a lot of systems will work. It's how you place them in your spread and how you work them.

You nailed it twith that line Mariner. In our seminars we focus on building a spread where each lure/rig compliments the other. A mixed up spread will not catch nearly as much as a focused and complementary spread.

[northernguy]

HI:
I had just returned from running a customers boat. I give on board seminars on peoples boats. Teach them how to, where to, when to, with there own equipement.
It Really hammers home when the see the actual equipement working.
I also give seminars at the the shows I attend as a vendor. That works, but there is NOTHING that matches ON BOARD show and tell . You also get to eat the results too.
I'm not a commercial subscriber now, as I live down here in Florida and travel a lot.
I'm off to Nova Scotia in a few weks to run another customers boat for GBFT and Halibut. It's a nice way to get out of the summer heat and watch others catch fish.
Up there it's almost all bait. I'm working on giving seminars on lures, eespecially MY BIRDS. I showed them how , last year , using a small(9inch) bird in front of a trolled Mack. YOUWZA!! they liked that a lot. Wait 'till they see my new BLUE/PINK and BLUE/WHITE GM's that I build.
I'm going offshore this SUNDAY for MAHI out ofCanaveral.
Now all of you, get out there and:
Wackm 'N Stackm
joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[27 sailfish]

Northernguy - When birds first came out - the stores only had Boone's in the 12 inch size. Only trouble is now/then a Tuna will run so fast that the bird wing gets snapped off from being pulled backwards.

You think a 12 inch bird is big - the green stickers use birds 4 FEET long :D.

12 inch bird is easier to see on choppy days.

I see all kind of bird rigs out there - even bird spreader bars. I'll bet all work sooner or later.

If I'm hurting for a fish - a 12 inch bird with a triple Green Machine chain is my go to lure. A lot of drag but the fish love it.



RDT - I like the looks of the little birds you sell. Might pick a few up.

[northernguy]

HI:
I was a commercial. I ran a green stick with a 4 foot bird. Yeah it worked. But they didn't tell you that if you made too tight a turn on small boat, that big bad boy will turn you over. Yeah ,I helped guys home after accidents. 60 miles on a tow rope is no fun. Been on bothe sides of that too.
Birds today are made out of injected plastic. the design now has it that a tuna screeming down into the depths wont break off a wing. I knoiw, I tweek them too to my specs when I build them.
I even run a three bird setup , AND I use birds on bars too. It quess it depends on what your after, what your equipement is that can handle it and last but not least.....You don't want to much drag that the Tuna will use it to get off. Thats the reason I use mine and lots of commercial guys have gone to them. RDTK makes a great bird and I'm happy that he does. More guys should get in and try birds of whoever the maker is. I sure wish I could send up a few pictures of guys using birds. YOUWZA!!!!!

Now get out there and :
WACKM 'N STACKM
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

Here ya go Skip:
http://reeldraggintackle.com/images/Bird%20Rigs/100_0895sm.jpg
13 inches of injected plastic, slightly weighted in the right place. If you like a big bird in your spread.

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

Mariner,
One of the things I harp on at our seminars is bird placement in the spread. I am not a fan of running a single bird 300 or more feet behind the spread. We have much better results keeping the bird rigs in the middle of the spread, and placing the rest of the lures and meat rigs on the outside. The bird rigs draw the bite to the middle of the spread, where there are plenty of options for multiple takers. A single bird rig, WAY back draws the bite, but more often than not it is your only hookup.

What do you think? How do ya run yours?

[northernguy]

HI:
I gotta agree with you,almost.
Yeah, I don't like the wwwback rig. Lots of guys do.I try and dissuade them from doing that.
I like to put my center bird/rig back where the champagne bubbles of your propwash start to dissipate. I suggest running it slightly off center of the propwash. I want that rig to run in and out of the turbulence BEHIND the propwash. All the years I fished commercially, thats where it worked best for me.How far back do u use yours?
I like my birds on the o/riggers and OUTSIDE of all the other lures.
Did u find, as I did, that the lures on the CHINE WAKES will draw more YFT strikes than other positions? I have reasons for that too.
Interesting ideas on where to put your downrigger and where to put your CORRESPONDING lure/bait rig over that. What do you do?Where do you put yours?
Again, I'm not a fan of birds larger than 10 inches. Yeah, larger ones work , but it's un natural and I feel that most of the times you'll loose tuna because they come up and shie away when they see that big of a bird. Yeah, you'll get days when 12 inchers will outproduce the smaller birds, BUT, I feel that the smaller ones will usually get more fish in the boat.
The above is NOT GOSPEL.just my interpretation of what I've seen in my years looking down from the tower or flying bridge. Lots of guys uswed to call me a monkey on the tower 'cause thst where I stayed from when I went the fishing grounds. I was always up there.
I'm sure you can sight chapter and verse on the why's and wherefors of your system, and mostly we do agree on some of the,but thats FISHING. I like your ideas on LURE PLACEMENT and WHY you do it.Mostly it agrees with what I've observed. It's no good placeing 7-9 lures out there and have one or more in the wrong place, AND worse......putting a 6 knot lure in a 8 knot spread and vice versa. ONE WRONG LURE WILL RUIN YOUR WHOLE SPREAD.
Leaving a lure thats not running right will also screw up a spread. I'd rather run one less lure than have a bad one out there.
'Nuff of my running off at the mouth. I'm off to get some rack time. I have to go down to Canaveral and do a show and tell to three guys on their boats and then show them how to use their lures and rigs at sea. I hope the weather improves. Were getting hit with some UGLY weather.
Now get out there and:
WACKM 'N STACKM
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[Reel Draggin Tackle]

Mariner, here is a look at what I call our meat spread. We use this when we are chasing YFT in the canyons:

1---------------------------------------outrigger spreader bar 6 to 8 wakes back
2-----------------------outrigger bird bar 4 to 6 wakes back
3-downrigger RDT Sport dredge
4-flat chugger w/ ballyhoo
5--------------------------center short shotgun bird bar just aft of wash (wake 5 for me)
6-flat chugger w/ ballyhoo
7-downrigger RDT Sport dredge
8-----------------------outrigger bird bar 4 to 6 wakes back
9---------------------------------------outrigger spreader bar 6 to 8 wakes back

The dredges are hooked sport dredges with a 9" diameter. At 6.5 kts we can run them at about 8 to 15 feet deep. They are run just forward of the inside outrigger. On a good day, we can slide a third out rigger line out there and we will put a daisy chain running right on top of the dredge.

Yep, we see most YFT come off the chines. I have rationalized it to the placement of our bird rigs, drawing the bite into the spread. I would like to hear your views. When they show it is usually in numbers and it is common for us to produce three to six hookups when we get hit.

Different strokes for different folks and boats. I do like to hear what works and don't work for anyone and any boat. Appreciate your shared views Mariner, your threads are always a good read.
Cheers.

[northernguy]

HI:
Just a thing of beauty.

For the average guy and friends, that would be too much.
For the experienced guy and crew, your cooking and hooking!!!

I liked the CHINE wakes for YFT. Looking up a quick tally, most of the thousand or so, were WACKD 'N STACKD off the CHINE wakes as a starter. They really provided the IMPETUS to the YFT to crash and slash the rest of the rigs out back.
Thats why I stay in the TOWER, even on UGLY days when I know I'll be home batterd and bruised and beat up from rolling around up there. Just watching the YFT come thru my spread really is an EDUCATION, (and like the commercial) EEVVEERRYY DAY.
As for the DOWNRIGGERS, I try and stay away from putting anything ABOVE where the downrigger lures are running. Maybe it's just me now,BUT, I hate to see a Hoo or smoker KING come sky rocketing out of the water from down below and just tear up everything on that side. Too many days when I had to rerig, untangle, unhook, and check for nicks 'n dings on the leaders and mainline.
Remember, I was commercial pin hooker. It was and still is (to my thnking) waste of trime LOOSING all that time doing it when I could have more rigs in the water catching fish. Now that is a commercial way of thinking. I still find it HARD to get out of that mind frame . OOUUCCHH and doublr AARRGGHH!!
I love where you place your INSIDE o/rigger lures. NEATOH!
I am starting to switch over more and more in pulling some bait, now that I don't commercial fish anymore. THIS TIME of year, PULLING BAIT is GREAT. Another CAVEAT!!!!
For the beginner and not too experienced, pulling all bait is easyer, but less productive, as you cover less ground and limit the speceis size somewhat. Again, it's my fishing experience and background talking. Faster speed = more fishing covered.
I still put BIRDS in ALMOST every position. Always will. Again my birds ar 9 inches on a bearing and I have the snap covered with a double skirt to stop that noise comin from the snap.
HINT...HINT...HINT... If you ever go to the "OTHER SIDE", and chase monster YFT, Don't be surprised at how NOISE scares off YFT. Even a dropped gaff will scare them away. It's the NOISE that stops most guys from WACKN...'N STACKN tuna in their kill boxes.
Now, boys 'n girls, GET OUT THERE and:
Wackm 'N STACKM
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner
Custom saltwater fishing tackle & tips for sportfishing, trolling and bottom fishing. (http://www.ancientmarinertackle.com)

PS:
I'll try and get S.W.M.B.O. to put up some pics on what my birds look like and where I put 'em.
Joseph B...aka...Ancient Mariner

[PlaynHooky]

You guys are a wealth of tuna knowledge.......now if there were enough YFT in Hatteras to make it worth wild I would be set! LOL

I hope Kayak is listening.....