TickTickTick...time's up

[Sea Gristle]

No news from Capitol Hill vis-a-vis the menhaden cap. Assemby's back in session, I doubt they'll ajourn before saturday so I guess that means it's up to the ASMFC now.

Hope they hurry up so I can figure out if I still need to obey the rockfish regulations this year.[sad]

[scotty80]

This may be some ground-breaking stuff ?

Think I might need a disclaimer like yours soon [wink].

[Sea Gristle]

Seems like it has the potential. I just hope it's an open debate/fight and not a back room brokered deal kind of thing. I'm no expert but more than the fate of menhaden & the Bay it sounds like ASFMC's cred is on the line. Not sure if the current administration will back them up seeing as who's living in the White House.

[Catch This]

My prediction is the Governor will do somethinig, but what that is we wont know until he does. He has one more day

[Topfish]

Today's the day. Will be very interesting what happens. I am waiting with baited breath!!!

[scotty80]

He made a statement ! http://www.governor.virginia.gov/MediaRelations/NewsReleases/2006/Mar06/index.cfm

About basket ball[sad]

[Reel ExCuse]

Looks like its not going to happen this year afterall...

Norfolk Virginian Pilot
Kaine won't impose cap on menhaden from Chesapeake Bay
April 1, 2006

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=102377&ran=10883

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine will not impose a cap this year on the harvesting of menhaden from the Chesapeake Bay, his office said late Friday, just hours before an April 1 deadline arrived.


A spokesman said the governor is concerned about the possible consequences of his inaction, which might include a closure of all state waters to menhaden fishing. But, by a quirk in the law, Kaine had no choice but to back away, his press secretary, Kevin Hall , said.

Here's the rub:

A state law passed last year empowers the governor to enact a cap on menhaden if, after consulting with scientists and regulators, he believes such a limit is necessary to protect the little silvery fish, which are important to Virginia's economy as well as the Bay's ecosystem.


However, he must act at least 30 days before the start of the menhaden season on May 1 - hence, the April 1 deadline - and only when the General Assembly is not in session.

Given that the General Assembly remains in session - albeit a special session, on the stalled state budget and transportation issue - Kaine believes his hands are legally tied, Hall said.

"The governor is concerned about the potential for a moratorium" on menhaden fishing, Hall said, "and is disappointed the General Assembly didn't enact a cap when it had the chance."

State lawmakers could have adopted any of three proposed bills this year that would have restricted the annual catch to about 105,000 metric tons. The cap was endorsed last year by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission , a regulator panel that sets policies from Florida to Maine.

All three bills were killed or withdrawn in the House and never resurfaced in the Senate, mostly because critics said they lacked specific science to support them and were legally fuzzy. Attorney General Bob McDonnell also opined that the cap was not legally binding on Virginia.

The winner in the debate is the menhaden industry, which probably will be allowed again this year to catch as many fish as its wants from Virginia waters and squeeze them into meal, pet food and health supplements at a processing plant in Reedville .

The industry largely is controlled by Omega Protein , a Texas-based company that owns the Reedville plant, the largest of its kind on the East Coast, as well as a fleet of fishing vessels and aircraft used for spotting schools of menhaden.

An Omega spokesman, Toby Gascon , was delighted and relieved by the news out of the governor's office.

"When regulations are available that are backed by peer-reviewed science, we'll be the first ones at the table," Gascon said. "We have as much a stake as anyone that menhaden stocks remain healthy."

Humans do not eat menhaden, but just about every game fish on the Atlantic coast does. Sports fishermen have long argued that shortages of healthy striped bass and bluefish, among other favored species, are due to declining menhaden stocks.

Menhaden also are filter feeders, meaning they help soak up excessive nutrients and algae that otherwise pollute the Chesapeake Bay. Environmentalists have urged protections of menhaden stocks for years. And in almost every state, except Virginia, rules against the industrial harvesting of menhaden exist today.

Todd Keller , a spokesman for the environmental group Menhaden Matter , said members are disappointed and frustrated by Friday's news.

"It's just unfortunate," Keller said.

He said the Virginia law passed last year empowering the governor to set a cap is "ridiculously complicated" and "clearly written by those favoring the industry."

Keller said the group would ask the U.S. Commerce Department to find Virginia in violation of the coastal fishing commission's cap endorsed last year.

John Daniel , a former Virginia secretary of natural resources and an attorney helping Menhaden Matter, said Kaine made the legally correct decision.

"My understanding was that he was looking for a way to act on this," Daniel said, "but he's gotten caught up in this snag, this nit-picky stuff."


Reach Scott Harper at (757) 446-2340 or scott.harper@pilotonline.com

[Catch This]

If nothing else happens between now and July 2, 2006, Virginia will be out of compliance with the ASMFC Cap. That should set the wheels in motion for the Secty of Commerce to shut down the fishery in Virginia. That is of course, if nothing else happens.

[Capt. Mike Anderson]

Catch This originally wrote:
If nothing else happens between now and July 2, 2006, Virginia will be out of compliance with the ASMFC Cap. That should set the wheels in motion for the Secty of Commerce to shut down the fishery in Virginia. That is of course, if nothing else happens.


What I see happing is:
Virginia will wait until the Secretary of Commerce makes his move then Virginia will obtain a stay of the Secretary's action until the matter can be ruled on by a federal court.

Probably will be a year before anything is straight.

Once again the fishing clubs have dropped the ball.
The first time was asking for a five-year average when they should have asked for half of the five-year average.

The second time, not foreseeing a political maneuver by the GA. Amateurs playing with pros.

[Topfish]

Captain Mike, I am a member of most of the organizations that you refer to as "fishing clubs" for years. I had been been active in the past but now have stepped back somewhat. I am aware of the inner actions of the ASMFC by my partner who has attended all the ASMFC meetings for the past several years. You have blamed or found fault with "the fishing clubs" somehow for many Bay issues. Why, what have "the fishing clubs" done to you and why are you so bitter? Many times when I read your posts I wonder why you are so critical of "the fishing clubs"? Was there an individual who harmed you in some way? I do not agree with everything "the fishing clubs" do but I would never try to stretch the truth and blame them for something they had little to do with (5 year study period). I feel you believe "the fishing clubs" have allot more power then they actually do. There are several organizations active in the menhaden issue and what you refer to as "the fishing clubs" did not originate the battle. You call "the fishing clubs" amateurs but in this case you are not accurate. There are lawyers, professional lobbyists, fishery scientists and fishery management folks involved with supporting the moratorium and study of the localized depletion of menhaden. How did "fishing clubs" offend or hurt you???? If you let us know perhaps we can make amends or rectify the matter (or understand why you are so angry)?

[Catch This]

We can debate all day long what the Fishing Clubs did right and what they did wrong. In reality, the 5 year average was one on the options ASMFC offered when this issue went to public hearings last summer. During the public hearings, the overwhelming majority of those who spoke wanted an outright ban, but that wasn’t one of the options. The board used the 5 year average and most of the organizations went along with that because it was progress. Not a lot, but it was progress.

The ASMFC Menhaden Committee will meet again in May. They will ask for a status on Virginia. They will be told no progress. Hopefully, they will issue a warning to Virginia. The other states in ASMFC will want some action. The rules don’t apply to every state except Virginia.

Between now and then, there will be some high level discussions between the feds and VA, because neither the Federal Government nor Virginia wants a moratorium. Politically, it is just too messy.

If there is no agreement or compromise between now and July 2, Virginia will be out of compliance. The other states will want action. ASMFC has to refer this to the Secretary of Commerce at that point. The threat of the Moratorium will cause something to happen. We will just have to wait and see what that turns out to be. In the interim, you can bet the “fishing clubs” will turn the pressure up on ASMFC.

If nothing else, hopefully Virginia just found out why the management of menhaden belongs in VMRC and not in the General Assem

[scotty80]

Thanks for the article reel excuse, very informative. I'm not so sure it is such a bad thing. Omega may be able to try and catch over the Cap this year. It may also bring to light the inner political BS in VA and ruin their creditability.

Omega is betting it all on their ability to declare ASMFC cap non-binding because of a lack of science. There is a lack of pure science. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that strongly suggests localized depletion is occurring in the Bay.

It will be interesting to see if ASMFC has enough might to regulate a fishery based on this type of evidence. Many wanted a ban on the fishery. That would have been certain suicide for ASMFC. Omega has found a nice home in VA with political favoritism. It will take a lot to dislodge them. I wonder if their plan will backfire on them?

Capt Mike & Top Fish, There was some discussion about this on the crabbing board recently. It got a little heated. Many people didn't want to see it on that board. I vowed to keep all political talk here. I am also interested in discussing this with Capt Mike. I'll start a new thread here so as not to mix things up too much. Please reply on the new thread.

If nothing else, hopefully Virginia just found out why the management of menhaden belongs in VMRC and not in the General Assem
Good point.

[Capt. Mike Anderson]

Topfish

I don't intend to to get in a lengthy discusion as to what your fishing clubs are and why.

What I will say is, you and Catch This have your series of events wrong as to the who did what and when.

Interesting, that an idea will be claimed by a group of organizations but when the idea starts going south, the group wants to then say it wasn't their idea. Damage Control?

[Topfish]

I guess you and Junebug went to the same school: "Jumble Word Game Institute". I do not speak for any "Fishing Club" but I am dismayed about your hostility toward recreationals (many of which belong to your alleged "fishing clubs") which I do not understand. Allot of us have altruistic reasons for belonging to what you call "fishing clubs". We have enjoyed the Bay for many years and want a way to give back, to make it better for the future. We are not going to join WMA, Md Charter Boat Assoc, etc. We join CCA, MSSA, CBF, Etc. Everything these Organisations do is not sanctioned by all of us. Basically as I see it ,all of us are out for the same thing (including Commercials): how to make the Bay better. The rhetoric you expose goes a long way in dividing the groups and the ultimate goal of making The Bay better. I respect guys like Larry Simns, he is a wise man. Larry does not go out of his way to incite any group that does not agree with the MWA. Larry is very reasonable and knows how to work the system without throwing bricks! There is much to be learned from wise men.

[Topfish]

I do not speak for any fishing clubs but according to my recollection the local depletion of menhaden issue developed in the following order:


1. Captain Jim Price (Charter Boat Captain) who has his own Conservation Org (not a fishing club) was first to wave the red flag about the lack of menhaden in The Bay. Captain Jim persisted and gained attention to the issue. Jim Price is a CCA member.( I believe Mike Anderson was at the CCAKN Fishing Tournament last summer, you had to join CCA in order partake in the Tournament. Therefore Capt. Mike is a closeted fellow CCAMD member, I will verify. Boy Capt Mike probably belongs to a "fishing club"? In fact I think I have a picture of Capt Mike at the event eating crabs and having a wonderful day, thanks Mike for supporting "a fishing club".) Will post picture when I find it.
2. CCAVA picked up the banner.
3. CCAMD followed
4. CBF Joined in
5. MSSA got on the boat.
6. National Coalition for Marine Conservation joined in
7. Environmental Defense joined in
Other groups joined in including Gov. Ehrlich and MDDNR.

I do not think it matters who started the issue but who got off their butts to do something about it. As far as I see it all the Organisations can take credit for a win for their efforts. No one is backing away from taking credit as you have incorrectly written.

[Capt. Mike Anderson]

Topfish originally wrote:
I guess you and Junebug went to the same school: "Jumble Word Game Institute". I do not speak for any "Fishing Club" but I am dismayed about your hostility toward recreationals (many of which belong to your alleged "fishing clubs") which I do not understand. Allot of us have altruistic reasons for belonging to what you call "fishing clubs". We have enjoyed the Bay for many years and want a way to give back, to make it better for the future. We are not going to join WMA, Md Charter Boat Assoc, etc. We join CCA, MSSA, CBF, Etc. Everything these Organisations do is not sanctioned by all of us. Basically as I see it ,all of us are out for the same thing (including Commercials): how to make the Bay better. The rhetoric you expose goes a long way in dividing the groups and the ultimate goal of making The Bay better. I respect guys like Larry Simns, he is a wise man. Larry does not go out of his way to incite any group that does not agree with the MWA. Larry is very reasonable and knows how to work the system without throwing bricks! There is much to be learned from wise men.


Hostility towards recreational fisherman is a ruse to discredit me. Your fishing club is great at smoke and mirrors. Fishing Club 101???

People, under the guise of conservatism, who want fish only for a select few, reek of greed. Stand back and examine your fishing clubs policies, then tell me otherwise.

Please don’t tell me I’m dividing groups, the leaders of your fishing club are light years ahead of me in that respect.


BTW.... I am not a member of your fishing club. Check your rolls.
Although I'm a member of the Democratic Party and don't agree with their policies either.

[Topfish]

Speaking of smoke and mirrors, would you kindly come out of the closet and tell us what "fishing club" you are always referring to or is it all "fishing clubs"? As I mentioned I belong to several organisations that according to you could be classified as "fishing clubs". I just want to know which of the leaders I should be taking to "the mast"??

[Sea Gristle]

This is a Chesapeake Bay issue. Everyobody has a stake in it. Virginians don't want to come into the twenty first century, they'd rather keep fighting the Civil War.

[Sea Gristle]

So given the Governor can't/won't act by law and the GA won't act unless brought back into session AGAIN, how can ANY action legally be taken between now and July 1?

[Catch This]

Given the timetable and the way the law is written, the Governors hands are tied. He can’t issue a proclamation until the menhaden season is over. If he were to issue one then, it would expire at the end of the year. He could call a special session of the General Assembly to just handle this issue. That is not likely.

The Gov could write to ASMFC asking for some sort of compromise and when the ASMFC Menhaden Committee meets in May, they could accept it. As was stated earlier, the politics of a moratorium is messy. ASMFC could also issue a warning in May.

We will just have to wait and see how this plays out.

[Sea Gristle]

Catch This originally wrote:
Given the timetable and the way the law is written, the Governors hands are tied. He can’t issue a proclamation until the menhaden season is over.

"Dear ASFMC, VA law does not allow me to act on your mandate. Perhaps the VAGA will consider your request next year? sincerely, Tim Kaine"

If he were to issue one then, it would expire at the end of the year. He could call a special session of the General Assembly to just handle this issue. That is not likely.

"Dear ASFMC, I & the VAGA had a very tough session and more pressing matters than yours, and I don't want to bother them again, maybe next year? sincerely, Tim Kaine"

The Gov could write to ASMFC asking for some sort of compromise and when the ASMFC Menhaden Committee meets in May, they could accept it.

"Dear ASFMC, I know you said 105K metric tons and Omega asked for a higher limit but perhaps you might consider my request? Incidently this has nothing to do with the fact that I excepted campaign contributions from Omega. Sincerely, Tim Kaine"

As was stated earlier, the politics of a moratorium is messy. ASMFC could also issue a warning in May.

"Dear Governor Kaine, Please be aware that we are not pleased with your non actions. But we understand your difficulties. We hope you & the VAGA can resolve this matter soon. This is your last warning and we REALLY mean it this time!"

We will just have to wait and see how this plays out.



I just figured out what "Tim" is short for.

Timid.

[Topfish]

Thanks for the back up SeaGristle, I appreciate it. I thought I stepped back a Century for a minute, almost got my musket off the mantle. Hey Cutbait, my girlfriend and I were visiting some of her ancestors graves last weekend. We were at a small graveyard in Cheltenham, MARYLAND. There were several graves with Confederate Flags on them. The flags were there due to the bodies down below were on your side and they were MARYLAND boys. Just thought you might find that comforting that some Maryland Guy has an interest in trying to make a difference in the menhaden issue (and just maybe could be a Gray). CCAVA guys should be commended for their unwavering efforts. Maryland people have spent a great deal of effort on this matter as well. Howard King (MDDNR guy) did a great job at the ASMFC meeting that turned the tide on this issue. A lot of us care about the menhaden issue. Cutbait said the VA lawmakers will decide the issue. However, the VA lawmakers decided not to decide. I am 100% behind the ASMFC and thank the members for their efforts.

[Catch This]

Sea Gristle, this was not the Governors fault. I truly believe he wanted to act to prevent the moratorium. His hands were tied. The way the law is written, he could not issue a proclamation while the General Assembly is in session. Unfortunately, they are still there because of transportation and budget issues. The one thing he did do by not acting was keep legal action out of the Virginia Courts. This is now a Federal matter. ASMFC will either have to change the action required in the addendum or find Virginia out of compliance. The other states will not allow ASMFC to do nothing. My personal opinion is that they will start the out of compliance process and it will get referred to the Secretary of Commerce. What happens after that remains to be seen.

One other positive outcome may be support from the Virginia executive branch for legislation next year to move Menhaden management out of state code into VMRC. We wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now if VMRC were managing this fishery.

Despite what the good Captain said, we don’t run away when things go south. I will be the first to admit that we just haven’t been successful yet. This one aint over yet. It may take another year or two, but we will see this fishery managed professionally.

[manfromva]

so what happens if there is a moratorium placed on menhaden. Who will enforce it. VMRC has no jurisdiction over menhaden nor does VDGIF

[TIMOTOOLE]

Catch This originally wrote:
This is now a Federal matter. ASMFC will either have to change the action required in the addendum or find Virginia out of compliance. The other states will not allow ASMFC to do nothing. My personal opinion is that they will start the out of compliance process and it will get referred to the Secretary of Commerce. What happens after that remains to be seen.

What would the secretary of commerce do? The only recourse the feds have is to threaten a moratorium...right? If they threaten a moratorium, who will be affected? Is a bait caught fish different than a omega caught fish? Is a omega caught fish different than a cast net caught fish? A fish is a fish is a fish.... right? If virginia is found out of complience how could the feds put a moratorium on one type of menhadne fishing without putting a moratorium on all types of menhaden fishing?

[Purdue1]

The Sec of Commerce will not shut the fishery down.

[Sea Gristle]

TIMOTOOLE originally wrote:

What would the secretary of commerce do? The only recourse the feds have is to threaten a moratorium...right? If they threaten a moratorium, who will be affected? Is a bait caught fish different than a omega caught fish? Is a omega caught fish different than a cast net caught fish? A fish is a fish is a fish.... right? If virginia is found out of complience how could the feds put a moratorium on one type of menhadne fishing without putting a moratorium on all types of menhaden fishing?


It is my understanding that ALL menhaden harvesting would be shut down, including bait fisheries. I suppose that mightapply to cast netting as well.

Good question what happens if the Sec orders a shut down, I assume Omega goes to court to get some kind of restraining order while they fight it out. Will Virginia fight it? who knows. By that time the VAGA will be back in session next year, and as CatchOne says maybe we'll get a better reception next year. I doubt it. It sure doesn't seem like VA has any mechanism in place to officially act on a shut down or order anyone to enforce it I guess. Easier to send a lawyer to court to deal with it.

One thing's certain -- there won't be a shut-down of campaign contributions just yet.

[Catch This]

Good dialogue. That means people are finally getting into this.

1. Technically Virginia will not be out of compliance until July 1, 2006 when the cap takes effect.
2. If there is a shutdown it will apply to the entire fishery. That means the industrial harvest, the bait harvest, and recreational. If there is a shutdown it will be illegal for anyone to possess a menhaden in Virginia.
3. If there is a shutdown, I am sure the industry would attempt to fight this in the courts. It is not a Virginia action; it is a Federal Action. Accordingly, it would have to be fought out in Federal Courts (if it gets there). The industry would have to find a judge that would issue a stay of order to prevent the moratorium from going into effect.
4. It there is a shutdown; it would be up to the Feds to enforce it.

It will be interesting to see what happens during the next ASMFC meeting currently scheduled May 8-11, 2006. The other states will want some action. ASMFC cannot ignore this. If they do, it would undermine all ASMFC management actions of every other specie in all member states. If you look at history, most states have done something to come into compliance when a moratorium has been threatened.

[Purdue1]

Go back and look at some of Junbuggers comments. I know you all hated JB but if you read what they were saying, you see their strategy. Everything that those people (junebug) said would happened has happened. Their next step is to convince the Commerce that the ASMFC didn't use science when coming up with the cap. They even have, on record, people from that department saying that the resource is not threatened. Then they will go to the courts if that doesn't work, but it is highly improbable that it will end up in the courts. Their whole arguement however, is based on the coastwide stock and not the bay. Remember, Junebug would not even admit there was a localized stock. At the end of the day, the whole cap issue is irrelevant anyway. At this point whats the difference between several thousand MT. Then again, we are all wrong because Omega is paying everybody off LMAO [grin][grin][grin][grin]

By the way, I strongly encourage you to spend a little time on the Commerce web site. While doing that keep in mind that Reedville is the second largest commercial port in the nation. Seriously read the bio of the Sec of Commerce, read what it is they do and what they stand for.

[Sea Gristle]

Technically, ASMFC's beef is with Omega, the cap is on reduction fishing only. But federal compliance is being mandated of the state. It chose to ignore the mandate. The state must now either argue against the legality of the cap or comply. I gotta think that the federal institution of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission must have granted some authority to overrule state's rights. I can't imagine why the court's will look favorably on "VA state law doesn't allow us to do that at this time" when the VAGA (or at least the VMRC and the Sec of Nat. Resources) should know what they are bound to by being a member of the ASFMC and have PBI'd legislation for years that would have addressed this problem EXACTLY.

[Sea Gristle]

Purdue1 originally wrote:
Their whole arguement however, is based on the coastwide stock and not the bay. Remember, Junebug would not even admit there was a localized stock.


I may have this wrong but I thought the whole point of the cap was so that the ASMFC could DO THE SCIENCE? The crux of the argument is whether localized depletion is occurring.

[Purdue1]

You got me there. For some reason, I thought the cap was more aimed at conservation then it was aimed at allowing them to do the study. The difference between the cap and their "proposed" cap wasn't that much in tonnage. I can't figure how that would help the study....I could be wrong though. The whole cap thing seems a bit diversionary because the real focus should be on the study I would think.

[Catch This]

The following is taken directly from the Introduction to public draft document on addendum II.

“This motion included limiting the harvest of menhaden in the Chesapeake Bay by purse seine…and initiating a research program immediately to determine the status of menhaden populations in the Chesapeake Bay. The Management Board is considering this action in order to conserve the species while more complete population information is attained to assess whether localized deletion is occurring in the Chesapeake Bay.”

Accordingly, the cap was to be for 5 years, while the research on the Chesapeake Bay stock is being conducted.

[Sea Gristle]

I was thinking that the cap would allow the scientists to have a stable number and then see if the overall population increased or decreased. But that assumes they have a scientifically sound counting method in place and I'm not sure they do. I'm pretty sure I heard Omega was going to allow them some kind of access to their spotter planes until the cap thing got serious. So not sure where that stands.

The questions I'd like answered is if you take 105K mt (or 131K) out of the bay, does 105K (or 131K) MT come in from the teeming ocean to take their place? How long does that take? And what do the rest of the fish eat while waiting for that to happen? And how many are needed to filter the H2O, feed the resident predators AND support a healthy reduction and bait fishery?

[Purdue1]

Thanks catch this. I thought that was the way they stated it but didn't remember the exact language.

[Sea Gristle]

Language is such a bugger.

[Purdue1]

Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
Godzilla ga Ginza hoomen e mukatte imasu!
Daishkyu hinan ******e kudasai!
Daishkyu hinan ******e kudasai!

[Sea Gristle]

Ok, I'll bite. Translation please?

[Purdue1]

Blue Oyster Cult.......Godzilla.

[TIMOTOOLE]

Catch This originally wrote:
Good dialogue. That means people are finally getting into this.

1. Technically Virginia will not be out of compliance until July 1, 2006 when the cap takes effect.

I dont understand. I thought the asmfc established a cap on OMEGA? Do you mean to tell me that OMEGA will exceed that cap by July 1st? If not, how is omega out of compliance?

[Catch This]

Officially, the cap does not take effect until July 1, 2006. So no regulations can be enforced until then. The industrial harvest season starts on May 1, 2006. Will they be over the limt by July 1? I doubt it. Since all the Menhaden regulations are written in Virginia state code, technically the state code has to be changed to include the cap. That didnt happen this year, so technically by not having the cap in the code, we are out of compliance when the regulations take effect on July 1, 2006.

[TIMOTOOLE]

Catch This originally wrote:
Officially, the cap does not take effect until July 1, 2006. So no regulations can be enforced until then. The industrial harvest season starts on May 1, 2006. Will they be over the limt by July 1? I doubt it. Since all the Menhaden regulations are written in Virginia state code, technically the state code has to be changed to include the cap. That didnt happen this year, so technically by not having the cap in the code, we are out of compliance when the regulations take effect on July 1, 2006.

This doesnt make any sense. If the quota hasnt been gone over, thats like a cop giving me a ticket for going 54 in a 55 mile anhour zone. Why would virginia be out of compliance when it hasnt gone over the quota????

[Catch This]

Technically not having the cap written into the regulations means there is no recognition of it and that makes VA out of compliance.