Ethics of the MD $1 Million fishing challenge

[scotty80]

Why does MDDNR spend x amount of $ on this when they don't manage the fishery for rec anglers? They want to open up rivers to nets yet spend big money on silly programs like this. They claim they are understaffed yet get out this PR, ASAP.

Build a fishery and people will come to fish. Now, where are the minutes of the SFAC & TFAC?

[capt.george]

Are you saying its Unethical to open rivers to netting OR
Unethical to have a Million Dollar Challenge?-

-Fishing for Fortune in -85--90 was a success, So far this challenge has been very quiet, as to public knowlege & intrest-

[scotty80]

I'm trying to say, you can't manage a fishery for both Comm & Rec fishing. DNR is trying to do both and it is obviously failing. Little interest in this Million $ thing. The program is aimed at Rec anglers. Comms don't need any incentive. Recs = Recreational and Comms= Commercial if that's OK on your little island[tongue]?

I feel this is yet another lame duck attempt by DNR to sell Rec licenses when they try to manage the fishery for Comms. IE; opening rivers to Comms fishing when recs can't catch dinner.

Comms taking the resources of the Bay is a big issue. Every day I watch as Elkton's new water treatment plant is being constructed. Upper Bay grasses are near historical levels. I've done more than my part by paying the flush tax while properly maintaining my private septic system.

I think the biggest issue is, if and when the Bay starts to recover, where is the allocation of it's resources going to? The people who were blamed for the degradation in the first place, or the takers of the Bay? Farmers plant and harvest. Watermen take.

[capt.george]

I'm trying to say, you can't manage a fishery for both Comm & Rec fishing. DNR is trying to do both and it is obviously failing

----The Md. DNR HAS the responsibilty, to manage both, & the SILENT leader of this department is a rec. angler.

My Dissapointment, comes mostly from the Wedge of disscontent that is being driven between the user groups of the Chesapeake based on --AW He!!, why waste my time & get upset , It's Fathers Day, The Suns comming up, The fish are biting better than in prior years, Me Worry? not for at least 5 minutes-

---The Do Gooders & Tree huggers, & the Gloom & Doom reporters, Even the G D Cartoonest that Depicted my beloved Chesapeake as a Cesspool with his drawing of the grim reeper sitting in a row boat in his hooded shroud of Death, holding a cane pole with a skeleton of a fish on the hook--will take today off--Oh Well-------



[excited]

[scotty80]

----The Md. DNR HAS the responsibility, to manage both, & the SILENT leader of this department is a rec. angler.

How do you figure the silent leader is the Recs? Opening of rivers to netting, dredging of shell for put & take oyster harvesting ( AKA; oyster replenishment program ), extension of harvest seasons for Comms, etc. The conservation minded Recs were the ones to put a stop to this. DNR top dogs are appointed by the Governor. Unfortunately it's all political BS.

[mikie]

I believe Capt. George was trying to say that the head of the DNR (Ron Franks), is a recreational angler, owns a flyfishing shop in Grasonville.
The DNR is charged with managing the resource for ALL of the user groups, not just one or the other.
As I posted on another forum - all of the gripes that the environmentalist wackos have in relation to ANYTHING can be solved by stopping the procreation of humans. If humans stop having children right now - in 100 years ALL of the problems that you profess will be solved because, after all, all of the problems are caused by people. In the ensuing 100 years we can probably use up all of the petroleum products, thus leaving the animals with even less to worry about.
Scotty, this response was aimed at you. Do you agree? Do you have children or intend to have them? If so, YOU are the problem!!

[scotty80]

mikie originally wrote:
If humans stop having children right now - in 100 years ALL of the problems that you profess will be solved because, after all, all of the problems are caused by people.

Really? Sturgeon were decimated by human overpopulation or overfishing?

My original thread was on my belief that MDNR is wasting money trying to get people to fish for fish that are not there! If I wanted to gamble I would buy a lottery ticket. Bring back the fish to a rec catchable level and people will fish. Eliminating nets would go far to achieve this goal. Just look at the annual net catch #'s and tell me I am wrong?

[scotty80]

reds originally wrote:
[

What Mikie didn't tell you is Ron Franks took an oath to uphold the laws of Maryland. One of those laws are the Chesapeake Bay belongs to all the citizens of Maryland not just one user group.

[/Q]
Ya got me there. If Ronald took such an oath then why only one user group for the rest of DNR's management responsibility? I think it is a great injustice that Bear, deer, birds, turtles, etc. have no comm harvest. Don't you agree? After all, the resources of MD belong to all the citizens of Maryland not just one user group.

Spin on...

[scotty80]

No you spin on. Or at least keep repeating what you heard at your fishing club meeting. It has to be a repeat job, not being familiar with the DNR enough to know a rec angler is it's director.

Not familiar enough to know that 74% of the Striped Bass are harvested by rec anglers yet your fishing club wants all the harvest.

Not familiar enough to know that your fishing club wants stone dumped into the bay, instead of fossil oyster shell, for oyster spat to attach to so it can't be harvested. Never mind that it cost 4 times as much.

Not familiar enough to know that the amount of oysters and menhaden in the bay in 1865
could not filter most of the polutants of todays population.

Reminder: Striped Bass Comment Period Closes Jun 26
NOAA Fisheries is seeking public input on alternatives that would potentially open the EEZ to fishing for striped bass. The comment period closes on June 26.
[/Q]

Bahaha! Wow! Classic Reds at his best. That one is getting saved to the hard drive. Must have pushed the reds hot button to receive the personal attack?

Reds, you do not know me, know what I know, nor who I know. Yet you personally attack me with your wild unfounded accusations?

I have never attended a CCA meeting, but I like their ideas. You see, they actually back up their statements with numbers and proof. Something you continually fail to do.

What does the Director of MDNR having a fishing pole in his basement have to do with anything? More spin from you. I'll bet Larry Simns has one there too, What's your point? You know dam well it's all political.

Reds, when I or anyone from this site can actually comprehend one of your posts, they seem to have a common theme. It seems to be a repeat job on your behave of your fishing club. I here the same rhetoric from Larry & Danny. I'm sure it's just coincidental.

Your next post will continue to build your reputation on this site as will mine.

All in good discussion my Friend,

[Sea Gristle]

scotty80 originally wrote:
Why does MDDNR spend x amount of $ on this when they don't manage the fishery for rec anglers? They want to open up rivers to nets yet spend big money on silly programs like this. They claim they are understaffed yet get out this PR, ASAP.

Build a fishery and people will come to fish. Now, where are the minutes of the SFAC & TFAC?


Can I get a little background details on this? Is it a million dollar payoff to catch the biggest fish or what? I understand your frustration on the money being spent, just trying to understand what DNR percieves as the ROI. Increased license sales?

[Sea Gristle]

Checked the DNR website. Wow, what a boondoggle. I suppose the argument could be made that DNR will get some data from the non-"Diamond Jim" tags returned. I would be interested if they could document any significant increase in rec fishing numbers beyond those who would normally be out there anyway.

[capt.george]

---Cost factor is in my opinion is effective --The Challenge is based on many species so as to boost fishing fresh & salt

-supervision of tagging is I Ass-u-me done by str. time dnr & contracted personel-

--Some i'm sure Co-inside with Existing rock fish tagging program done from pound nets--These nets would provide other species as well that could be released in certain predermined areas-

--as to prize money I suppose a Loyds of Lomdon Insurance policy has been issued to cover prize money
Should be aprox 10% cost against prize money
--Local & National venders cover the lower Nitty Gritty Prizes

--A good program , that I suggested in Feb.--But a Deffinate Sleeper as to being a Business booster

---Very Quiet subject as far as the Gloom & Doom media,If there was a Wound Scab catagory, bet they would jump on it like Stink on manure--Then again it would have to be of chicken origen-

Gotta go somewhere in the Great Chesapeake is a brightly tagged "DIAMOND JIM"--won't do me no good , no prize for the Dummy--[shy][shy]

[scotty80]

Sea Gristle originally wrote:
I would be interested if they could document any significant increase in rec fishing numbers beyond those who would normally be out there anyway.


Kevin, those were my thoughts exactly. It should be obvious in rec lic sales #'s. We will see in the numbers from 2004-2007.

---Cost factor is in my opinion is effective --The Challenge is based on many species so as to boost fishing fresh & salt

Capt G, theoretically I agree. That would be based on the assumption that the Ches Bay & fresh water offered a underutilized fishery. Unfortunately, we all know this is not the case. There are many reasons for this. I find it ironic that DNR spends big $ on this contest while at the same time attempts to promote netting large quantities of spawning fish.

[scotty80]

capt.george originally wrote:
Gotta go somewhere in the Great Chesapeake is a brightly tagged "DIAMOND JIM"--won't do me no good , no prize for the Dummy--[shy][shy]


From my understanding of these rules, http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fish4cash/rules.html

Anyone but DNR guys can participate? Seems hook & line Comm guys are eligible also. How many will go?

[capt.george]

I find it ironic that DNR spends big $ on this contest while at the same time attempts to promote netting large quantities of spawning fish

--Scotty, I find this statement, Unnessary- As a user of the waters of the Chesapeake, I have never heard of or seen the DNR promote netting large quanties of spawning fish-

---as discussed many times on this board ALL, I repet,ALL fish are spawners & the others lack the Equipment but like all males are kinda usefull in the process

-Our state is a nursery state , so some of our seasons are based on the return of the fish to their point origen-

As far as the " Don't catch a mommie fish" Bunk you hear & read & the seasonal arguement in the winter & spring coming from Annapolis Etc.-I can't buy that-

--Any fish taken, regardless of When & Where ,Age or Size, Minnow or trophy , Caught by net or hook, if its female its a spawner-It should be understood by now & an accepted fact, that fish to Humans is a large provider of our food chain-There should be no remorse from anyone on this fact -The fact that most fish harvested are NOT Wasted, but consummed, in itself is of great importance--Or at least to me it is -

--Now what irks me is laws that allow 2 Large Boat fish PER Trip, for the Capt. & Mate in some states, ---OH WELL--[shy][shy]

[Geckert]

I dont know about you guys but I have had nets in rivers for many years. Perfectly legal. You may be talking about gill nets or seines but all other nets in rivers are perfectly legal. People are talking about mismanaged monies by the DNR I think the mismanagement would have to come in the form of total lack of officers on the water anymore, except of course in the areas where the big money is. ANNAPOLIS. Anywhere else you go on the bay you will almost be free and clear to do as you wish and in that I see a problem.

Unfortunately in MD there is a huge Rec vs Comm thing. Recs you wont see me coming to your office and tell you to make less copies because your using all the trees. Why because they are a renewable resource and can be managed through proper protection and farming.

Commercial fishing today is not what it used to be. Most of the fishermen today will stand behind any reg to ensure their livlihood for the future short of a moritorium. I will continue to be on the comm side of this since I am one and I refuse to appoligize to any of you recs who think I am ruining "your" bay.

SHUT UP AND FISH THERE IS PLENTY TO GO AROUND.

[scotty80]

capt.george originally wrote:
I find it ironic that DNR spends big $ on this contest while at the same time attempts to promote netting large quantities of spawning fish

--Scotty, I find this statement, Unnessary- As a user of the waters of the Chesapeake, I have never heard of or seen the DNR promote netting large quanties of spawning fish-

---as discussed many times on this board ALL, I repet,ALL fish are spawners & the others lack the Equipment but like all males are kinda usefull in the process

-Our state is a nursery state , so some of our seasons are based on the return of the fish to their point origen-

As far as the " Don't catch a mommie fish" Bunk you hear & read & the seasonal arguement in the winter & spring coming from Annapolis Etc.-I can't buy that-

--Any fish taken, regardless of When & Where ,Age or Size, Minnow or trophy , Caught by net or hook, if its female its a spawner-It should be understood by now & an accepted fact, that fish to Humans is a large provider of our food chain-There should be no remorse from anyone on this fact -The fact that most fish harvested are NOT Wasted, but consummed, in itself is of great importance--Or at least to me it is -

--Now what irks me is laws that allow 2 Large Boat fish PER Trip, for the Capt. & Mate in some states, ---OH WELL--[shy][shy]


Capt G, Didn't DNR push to open several rivers to nets? Don't these nets happen to target spawning fish? If the nets were not allowed during the spawning period would netting be comm viable? You have heard it many times before, nets ruin the rec fishery period. I understand basic FMP plans. A max # of fish can be taken before it crashes, or a limited # of fish can be taken to balance the current eco-system.
It's well known that all Female fish are not needed to sustain a fishery. So why does a certain area of the Bay get to partake in this catch & kill fishery and others not? You just said said all Female fish are spawner's no matter were caught, correct? To me, that suggests you support a Bay wide trophy season and C & R season. Do you ?...

[scotty80]

reds originally wrote:

Wrong Scotty I'm not your friend. Last friend I had in your club caught me without my Kevlar back protector. I understand it's quite prevalent in your fishing club.

Why is it ok for fishing club members to say what they want about other user groups but when the shoe is on the other foot, fishing club members become indignant?







I don't know, perhaps you should listen to your own advise?



If two people made you change an opinion of a whole user group, then your opinion wasn’t changed, it was biased going into the meeting.

[scotty80]

Geckert originally wrote:
Unfortunately in MD there is a huge Rec vs Comm thing. Recs you wont see me coming to your office and tell you to make less copies because your using all the trees. Why because they are a renewable resource and can be managed through proper protection and farming.

Commercial fishing today is not what it used to be. Most of the fishermen today will stand behind any reg to ensure their livlihood for the future short of a moritorium. I will continue to be on the comm side of this since I am one and I refuse to appoligize to any of you recs who think I am ruining "your" bay.

SHUT UP AND FISH THERE IS PLENTY TO GO AROUND.

Geck, If you were to go to Rec offices and demand less paper use you would find out that they already use recycled paper, a farmed renewable resource. It's ironic that you mention farming.
Where is the farming of the Bay's resources? The only farming I see is my tax $ spent on put and take oystering.

[capt.george]

To me, that suggests you support a Bay wide trophy season and C & R season. Do you ?...

--To answer Scottys, Question --& this is only MY Personal Opinion --
---As most of you know I am a charterboat operator, have been for over 35 years, My Son in law is a Capt. & as well as my Grandson-I have a vested passion of what the future holds for them, after my ashes are scattred at old 8B,

--As to your Question , I have & never will belive in All Day H&R, But I do understand that upper bay anglers have fewer species to satisfy thier fishing day--For that reason my voice has been silent on this subject--I do believe water tempature is a critical ingredient when it comes to H&R regardless of location or time of the year--
--Lets face the fact , the flats H & R season was & is a Regional local political move to boost the coffers of the surrounding counties that suffered a Large loss , by the imposing of one bird limits on the goose population-A so called commercial controled , ( wrongly i may add )legislator Ron Gunns , with the help of now absent DNR fisheries leaders helped create what many Maryland anglers & out of stateters now enjoy--
--My horoscope said "Keep your mouth shut today"--But my heart says speak your peace, get it off your chest, time is short & you may never get the chance to do so--

--I am personaly constantly saddned by the way SOME rec. anglers constantly attack their commercial brothers , & constantly bring up the bad occurances, never seeing or Wanting to see the good side of these hard working men & women of the Chesapeake -When I leave the dock with a Paying party I say to myself , what if I was a waterman, with a family & all the bills that All of us have , Just an Ole mans fantasy ?--Try it next time out , H&R , trolling or chumming for Enjoyment--Make a day of it, keep a log of your Keepers Released--not by length but ESTIMATED pounds, total it up , Deduct your expences ( no fair using HO"S financial input)--Day stops at an hour before sunset--Regardless of the frenzeed evening bite --& all 36" plus dont count--
--Yeh, the profits will pay the bills , If Yes how about tommorow in the 20 kt. n easter?
--Some say watermen don't put back, you surely havent taken the time to meet & get to know them, Your loss --The Bay is for All user groups, & when one bleeds we all bleed, at least thats the way I feel --The Whole East Coast now enjoys a world Class Striper fishery , Thanks to Sacrifices made by All Maryland User groups--To each its own, in the past & into the future --OH WELL[shy][shy]

[scotty80]

Capt G, I'll bite, H&R, meaning? Harvest & release?

Please tell me you are joking about political bias in Fisheries management? Why does the trophy season occur in the same area as your charter boat?

Can you give me any proof of waterman paying back to the Bay?

If I move down to the Eastern shore and start a Comm fishing biz, should I be guaranteed to succeed?

[capt.george]

Scotty --Ya very well know what i ment-[grin]

-Locations size & limits , as Reds says are a Federaly controlled ,Something most Fishermen learn early in their boating lives , Is fish have heads & tails , Boats have props., & all may move around to suit their needs-

--We both know the answer to that one, already! Deale boats control the Trophy season , We just let others into the hunt out of kindness-[wink]

---Eastern shore Commercial fishing business ?--As a Gentleman Waterman, possibly, As a weathered, knarled hand, strong backed ,diesel smelling ,web footed waterman , I think not ---[grin]

--Then again , myself & others would be lost in your business world , as I said --Live & let live , to each his own--Its tough to walk in anothers mans shoes--[shy]

[Geckert]

I wish I knew of a program like that. I would enroll in a minute then I would give myself sick days and holidays off with pay. Shoot I would even have personal days. Scotty you say your tax dollars go to put and take oystering. Yes you may be right to a point but what about the other areas that they seed that are not allowed to be harvested by comms I guess they are a waste of your tax dollars too. You seem to be verry biased tword the comm for some reason. These are the same guys that would tow you back long before a rec would or would give you the shrit off their back even if they didnt know you I have never seen a waterman that wouldnt go above and beyond to help someone in need. I can say for sure that in recs that is far form the case. Yes there are some but its not the norm.

We as commercials only want to make a living and be able to see our families grow up plain and simple. By no means do we believe you can get rich working on the water. There seems to be a popular misconception between the watermen now and those of 30-40 years ago where it was if there is space left in the boat we can keep it. Laws we abide by are much stricter now then ever size and quota stricter and anyone that says there is a lack of rockfish in the bay no just cant fish. I make a living on crabs, perch, catfish, and eel and liast time I checked I never heard a rec complain about not catching enough of any mabye crabs but a bushel or 2 would never be enough for a rec right.

I contribute my time to fill out data sheets on my catch I have tagged more fish than any rec ever will so please do not say the comms do nothing for conservation. We pay the same tax dollars as you.

[Sea Gristle]

reds originally wrote:


Maryland DNR doesn’t make all the decisions as to where Striped Bass can be caught and kept in the spring. The ASMFC has a lot of input into how many fish are caught and where.


Don't know how it's done in MD and how it differs from VA, But to my knowledge down here the ASMFC doesn't tell the VMRC where or when, it only tells the how much (pounds). It's up to VMRC, who solicits input from user groups as to preferences on length of season vs size limits (size limits, possession limits, closed seasons, etc.) and the determines its regulations to meet that quota. Or at least it appears that way.

Well spoken, Geckert.

[Sea Gristle]

reds originally wrote:

The quota in the bay (VA's only quota on Striped Bass. Ocean has no rec quota) is closely monitored by the technical committee.

Maryland has a bigger quota then VA, both in the spring Trophy and regular bay quota and is more closely monitored.

The bay's minimum size on Stripers is 20 inches. Maryland has traded quota for the lowering of size to 18". If VA minimum is 18" then they also have traded quota. The ASMFC had to agree to this. Just one instance where Maryland proposed and ASMFC had the final say. There are many others.


Undoubtably they do monitor (it's their job), and a state's calculations must achieve the ASMFC's quota so they have final say (NJ's recent non-compliance bruhaha comes to mind). But as you say, they are willing to consider alternate limits /seasons if it equals their quota. So by increasing the potential # of keepers, the DNR is already "promoting" MD rec fishing, sorta. The increased catch means likely more restrictions the next year. And it's back to the state to ask fisherman whether they prefer stripers regs that make it tougher to catch a keeper, or closed/reduced season(s).

Spending additional contest monies ( assume it comes from lic fees?) seems to me will in the end be a losing proposition.

[capt.george]

Can you give me any proof of waterman paying back to the Bay?


---Scotty- I have an old moldy, spider web laden briefcase filled w info on the happenings in the 5 years of recovery for the present Rockfishery--Tales of Shoulder To Shoulder work by ALL --In those days Md. had 3 user groups Commercial -Charterboat -Rec.--

--All working together for a ultimate Goal--As the MSSA made plain & simple a "World Class Fishery"--The then WHITE PAPER Committie worked day & night for the Future , & the respect & comradeship of these groups was on our Agenda Daily--

--The Md. DNR was active & ava, to all --Hearings were common place & input came from all walks of life -The early tagging GILL to mouth program ( that the commercial fisherman uses today to moniter fish from boat to consumption) was suggested by a Salmon Guide )--There were Arrguments , loud & quiet ,but in a productive way---This co- operation & the many Give & Take aspects were a way of life ---All contributed

--Its time this becomes a true, again--Working for a Common Goal , we have enough out of state Jealously & Mother Nature in some ways has been cruel to our state --The Southern dam has made our Baitfishery a trickle While our wave of untouched 28-32" females roar to the Coast---Time to round the wagon folks --OH WELL-[sad][sad]