Smallest boat for the ocean?

[dj_is]

All,

I am looking at purchasing a 18' center console primarily for the Chesapeake, but would also like to take it in inshore/close offshore. Is this realistic?

Thanks!

[uncljohn]

Depends. If weather is right, should be ok, but you'd be limited as to when you can go. Also, there are vast differences betw hull designs. An 18' Mako could do it b/c it has good deadrise and relatively high gunwales. There are many "bay/flats" boats out there that have low gunwales and shallow deadrise, and I wouldn't feel safe in them.

Tred Barta used to take a 17' Mako 30+miles offshore and spend the night and catch humungous tuna when he was a youngin'.

[Butthead]

Tred Barta also has a screw loose[grin]

I've had my 23 Carolina Skiff offshore on many occasions, while vacationing in the outer banks, and Ocean Isle Beach areas. Got caught in a sticky storm this past year, and that made the old bunghole a little tight, but she handled it fine.

Haven't ventured the 60 miles required around here though....that is a little crazy.

[dj_is]

The boat is an '86 Trophy with a 120 HP Force. I don't think it is considered a flats boat, but I really don't know.

[captaingeorge]

If you're single and an adventurous risk-taker, I'd say go for it. If you've got a wife, or kids, or anyone else depending on you, I'd say get a bigger boat, or keep that one in the Bay.[smile]

[uncljohn]

Well the good part is a Trophy has decent deadrise and should be able to handle offshore stuff. The bad part is that I wouldn't go 50' offshore w/ a Force engine. The saying around here is "May the Force be with you, cause you're gonna need it". They're notorious for failing. And that's why Trophy's don't come w/ them anymore. And to be honest, Trophy's, especially older ones, are subpar in construction. A similarly sized Grady or Mako or C-Hawk or Parker is going to weigh a thousand pounds more, just b/c they are made of stronger/thicker ply in the hulls and transom. Personally I'd shop some more and find a better quality boat that you may pay more for, but will last longer and provide a more comfortable time on the water.

[dj_is]

Thanks all for your thoughts.

I forgot to mention that while the boat is an '86, the engine is a '96. Are the Force engines really that bad? Many of the boats I have looked at come with them; maybe because I am looking at lower priced boats?

[WildeOne]

They're antique technology, but simple to repair, which is good bc they need it. Force, in most people's minds, is dead last in engines to own. However, many have given lots of fairly reliable hours. That said, I wouldn't venture very far offshore with a Force on the back.
Jim

[Gitzit 2]

I agree with the previous posts.
the older Trophies are lackluster in construuction and have a reputation reflecting it.
we have a 1997 Proline 170 CC that we have had about 10 - 12 miles offshore.
it is heavy and has a generous freeboard.
you MUST pick your day and know the short term weather changes that are coming.
look around for a boat with good freeboard and a substantial hull weigh (for it's size)
even on good days the inlets can be... let's say challenging!
when we originally bought the boat it came with a Force on it.
Merc made over 600 changes in the Force motors between 95 & 97.
they phased out the original Chrysler parts and began sharing all Merc parts except the power head and ignition system.
we had great luck with the motor logging almost 3,200 hours on the motor without ever pulling the powerhead!!
but we bought it new and really took care of it.
we replaced it in 04 with a Merc Optimax and it is like night & day.
i would be cautious of purchasing a used Force.. they last but you have to be extreme in your care to get the most out of them.
good luck finding a boat and take extra care if you venture out of the inlets!


Mark


170CC Proline
MSSA NW Chapter

[makomyday]

It all depends on the weather , I fished an 18 hydrosports for 6 years with many trips out of OC and Hatteras . Got my a$$ kicked a few times too . But got some nice fish to . jose

[Nosmo King]

When I was a young pup, I had a 17 Mako and fished it 12 out of Shinnecock Inlet on a regular basis. You have to pick your days.

[sea-gar]

dj_is originally wrote:
All,

I am looking at purchasing a 18' center console primarily for the Chesapeake, but would also like to take it in inshore/close offshore. Is this realistic?

Thanks!

[sea-gar]

dj_is originally wrote:
All,

I am looking at purchasing a 18' center console primarily for the Chesapeake, but would also like to take it in inshore/close offshore. Is this realistic?

Thanks!

[sea-gar]

dj_is originally wrote:
All,

I am looking at purchasing a 18' center console primarily for the Chesapeake, but would also like to take it in inshore/close offshore. Is this realistic?

Thanks!

[sea-gar]

NO 18ft. is to small. You can not count on the weather report to be correct. Don't waist your money on an undersized boat if you have higher asperations.

[yostbilly]

first thing i would do is replace the motor. not trying to be a wise butt, force motors are not very reliable. be very careful going out in any size boat. a lot of people take chances in sll kinds of boats.

[yostbilly]

first thing i would do is replace the motor. not trying to be a wise butt, force motors are not very reliable. be very careful going out in any size boat. a lot of people take chances in sll kinds of boats.

[yostbilly]

first thing i would do is replace the motor. not trying to be a wise butt, force motors are not very reliable. be very careful going out in any size boat. a lot of people take chances in sll kinds of boats.

[done workin]

Some days I do think think Barta has a screw loose. I always thought 23' was the safe minimum with preferably twins or at least a kicker. If neither of those two options work, better have a damn good radio and insurance. Just like the bay watch your days and the weather. I personally would feel safe with a 21' and a reliable engine, but they're all reliable until they break down.

10-12 Miles offshore ain't bad, hell that's only SP to Bloody point but on a bad day with that 3-5' wave that can blow up when you're trolling with your back to the wind and then turn around, well............. been there done that. what's the differance??

Think about the point about being single married/kids etc, and then ask yourself if you would want somebody else you care about going out in the same boat??? Or would you feel comfortable in somebody else's boat of the same size. If the answer to either of those questions is no, then don't use it offshore.

[Capt.Nick]

A 21 ft.Sea Cat will take you to the Canyons in comfort.With a pair of 50,70.or 90 4 strokes,you won't need deep pockets either.Once you start fishing in the ocean,you'll want to go further anyway.Buy a cat now and get it over with.You won't regret it.

[Joe Bowers]

I agree with all.. I have an 18' SeaRay with a 90 HP Merc outboard. I have had it places where I don't want to go back to, because of the way the weather changes so fast. I have been in the Bay and got caught, been in the Ocean (15 miles) and got caught. Heck been just off the beach and had a lot of fun getting into the inlets. If you have the bucks don't settle for anything less than 21 '.. You have to watch the days, as stated, but you also have to watch the water and the skys without relying on the weather report. This sometimes is difficult at 11 p.m. at the 4th island in December while the Big Rocks are shaking your poles.

JoeB

[BigWillJ]

Also agree with all the replies which err on the safer side of a well built boat designed for stability in "bigger" water, and a motor with a reputation for being reliable.

It's because of today's more reliable motors that writers of such adventures say a single motor is in all probability ok out there, but dual, or spare power, is still a consideration. Wise to recognize that dual motors should feed off their own electric and fuel sources, or two motors become only as good as one if those sources fail.

Whatever size boat, also wise to equip it well - things like radar, dual batteries, a good VHF radio and a back-up radio, cell phone with good coverage, a well outfitted ditch bag, EPIRB, tow insurance, etc. And spare everything.

Doesn't quite answer to your specific question, just some more things to think about.

[hedjug]

The real question is not about size, it's about how seaworthy is the vessel & how good is the captains seamanship? Extra size MAY provide a better ride, but it can have little bearing on if the boat will stay afloat if it gets snotty. A 26' cuddy with a open transom(for outboards) may not be any safer than a 13 whaler in rough stuff. Also, deadrise is not a indication of a seaworthy vessel. Open transom O/B's are quick to sink in a following sea, even worse if the boat has a cuddy to fill with water.

You want a boat that is designed to keep water out, get water out quickly & stay afloat when water does get in.

A few things to look for:
-Closed transom
-Self Bailing cockpit
-Watertight bilge area (no open holes or loose hatches)
-Proper bilge pump size, and a extra pump for good measure.
-Proper installation of thru hull fittings & hose connections
-Anti siphon loops on bilge pump hoses.
-Batteries mounted as high as possible
-Positive floatation (hope that you never need it)
-Inboards should be set up to be used as an extra bilge pump

A few things to stay away from-
-Open transoms
-Decks that drain into the bilge
-Cuddies with doors that are flush to the deck
-Large boats with Cabin windows close to the water line

[dj_is]

Thanks for all your help guys. Definitely going to have to think this one through some more!

[hardhead]

I like cats & anything out a bit its nice to have twins. wx makes the decision for everyone.. all the time, Force = Chrysler......when is the last time you saw a chrysler boat or motor
Wes

[OUTCAST1]

I wouldn't be at all concerned about taking that boat out in the ocean. Unless, of course, you also wanted to come back![angel][angel][angel]

[firefighter1962]

i have a 19 ft searay cc with a 125 merc , and i have to say i dont think i would even consider the ocean , i have been in the chessy when a storm pops up and its not a very nice ride back once the waves kick up , dont get me wrong i would like to take her out in the ocean but i think it would have to be ideal conditions , so i say if your buying go bigger that way you can use the boat in and off shore

[Capt.Nick]

hedjug originally wrote:
The real question is not about size, it's about how seaworthy is the vessel & how good is the captains seamanship? Extra size MAY provide a better ride, but it can have little bearing on if the boat will stay afloat if it gets snotty. A 26' cuddy with a open transom(for outboards) may not be any safer than a 13 whaler in rough stuff. Also, deadrise is not a indication of a seaworthy vessel. Open transom O/B's are quick to sink in a following sea, even worse if the boat has a cuddy to fill with water.

You want a boat that is designed to keep water out, get water out quickly & stay afloat when water does get in.

A few things to look for:
-Closed transom
-Self Bailing cockpit
-Watertight bilge area (no open holes or loose hatches)
-Proper bilge pump size, and a extra pump for good measure.
-Proper installation of thru hull fittings & hose connections
-Anti siphon loops on bilge pump hoses.
-Batteries mounted as high as possible
-Positive floatation (hope that you never need it)
-Inboards should be set up to be used as an extra bilge pump

A few things to stay away from-
-Open transoms
-Decks that drain into the bilge
-Cuddies with doors that are flush to the deck
-Large boats with Cabin windows close to the water line




I disagree about open transoms.You can ship rogue waves in a few seconds with a notched out transom by keeping the wave gate open.A full transom will hold water much longer and if the scuppers get clogged...well....your sunk.

[hedjug]

I don't want to get into a ****** contest about this, but open transoms are not safe offshore. Nor would I recommend telling anybody so. On top of that, I would never tell an inexperienced skipper it's O.K.

Why do you think they stopped building them?

-A rouge wave can sink ANY vessel.
-Improper seamanship (keeping the transom door open) can sink any vessel.
-But, A 1' chop can sink an open transom boat in an instant. Not gonna happen in a closed transom.

We had a 25' WA with a open transom sink at the dock on the upper Chesapeake due to a 1' chop. It took about 3 min for her to go down. That boat was sitting directly next to my 18' bowrider I/O that didn't even have the swimplatform getting wet. They are flat out dangerous, even on the bay.

[dj_is]

Can you guys explain what "open transom" means? What should I look for?

[OUTCAST1]

"Open transom" means transom is cut down lower than the sides (gunwales) in order to mount the outboard motor. In many cases, whether drifting or at anchor, waves can slop over that cutout portion of the transom. A closed transom will be just as high as the gunwales, with a bracket stuck out back to mount the outboard on. (Some of these brackets are manufacturer installed, some are aftermarket, and many of the new ones are " integral"-built into and as part of the boat-they don't even look like a bracket at all.)

P.S. All of us that run small boats in the ocean recognize we are fishing "on the edge." With a top quality rig, an experienced hand at the wheel, good solid planning, safety gear beyond what USCG requires, a plausible Plan B and C, and a perfectly tame weather forcast, WE ARE STILL AT SUBSTANTIAL RISK! You are conspicuously short on several of these counts, (not the least of which is a Force outboard-which many of us rank dead last in quality/dependability.) YOU ARE COURTING DISASTER! Buy some good towing insurance, take a good safety operators course, and run the bay for at least three seasons, (there's plenty of great fishing and cruising on the bay-and plenty of room to get in trouble there also.)

[BigWillJ]

Our 23 x 8.5 boat has a notched transom with 400 lbs of metal hanging from it. We've taken waves over the entire transom, and over the top of the motor, during times when we probably shouldn't have been out there in the first place. You could say we weren't prudent. We've found ourselves drifting in a washing machine, with three to four footers coming at us from every direction. Still, we were never in any danger of being swamped because of the transom design, and besides, those bangers were splashing over the upper most limits of the transom anyway. That notch was of little consequence.

[Antman40]

I just want to say I've never had my current boat in the ocean. I've been in the bay and dealt with 4'-5' waves.....
I've got a 19' cc and the most important thing to me is the beam, mine is 8ft. If you get in a situation that pushes you against the edge of your limits you MUST have somethng to fall back on....EXPERIENCE.....
With that being said....if you don't have experience with the chaos of the water.....leave it alone....if you must...try the bay first for at least a year......see what happens when those thunderstorms roll up on you and you can't get away and have to ride em' out......

With that being said, I don't think I would want to go out into the ocean on a regular basis on anything smaller than 24' with 2 motors.

[FinaddictMike]

Lotsa good info but it boils down to a couple things. Your experience and the fact that you can't count on NOAA but can count on Murphy's Law. I've been 30 miles out in a 18' cobia CC But within VHF distance (and arial flare distance) of other boats. That Cobia would skip across the top of 4' seas at 40 MPH with a 70 Yammi on the back. While much smaller than my present 21' WA, it rode much better at high speed in some nasty conditions.

[c21478]

Murphy's Law is over optimistic when on the water!

[RKOCH]

So when I was fishing the fingers 56 miles out in a 1972 glastron v-166 with an 80 horse merc I must have been nuts ? yeap I am. I caught a many of fish mostly bluefin but also got caught in a very nasty storm and almost did not come back so that ended the offshore adventures in the little boat.

[fshhntr19]

I would definitely have to agree with the requirements made by hedjug, i've got a 21' CC and (most of the time, other than getting wet) can easily go 20-30 miles offshore. I think that the biggest factor in a boats seaworthiness is its hull, transom and beam. For instance my boat has a very deep V-hull and a good flare. So when its rough its not constantly nose diving.

[OBXfisher1]

We have had our Sea Hunt Triton 172(17' obviously) up to 12 miles off- shore. We have also had it 20 miles north or south of OI in January striper fishing. But we have also got caught by some nasty seas both offshore and on the shoals at OI. If we had the money we would have one in the 23-25' range but dont right now so it will have to do. Good luck finding one.



Spenser

[hedjug]

fshhntr19 originally wrote:
I would definitely have to agree with the requirements made by hedjug


Ahh yes, a smart man is amoung us[grin][grin].

[raythecrab]

I have, from how it was described, an open transom. But there is an open space, with drains, and another barrier beore the floor.
It is also equipped with floor drains. It is 21'7" CC with a deep V with an 8' beam, single 150 4-s Yammi. I have been navigating the bay for 40 years in many smaller vessels and really would like to take it 20-30mi offshore. I am worried about the lack of offshore experience that I have. (none!). Other than the obvious things (VHS, spare everything and picking the right day) any suggestions? Maybe find an experienced offshore captain to ride with me ? Thanks.

[OUTCAST1]

raythecrab originally wrote:
I have, from how it was described, an open transom. But there is an open space, with drains, and another barrier beore the floor.
It is also equipped with floor drains. It is 21'7" CC with a deep V with an 8' beam, single 150 4-s Yammi. I have been navigating the bay for 40 years in many smaller vessels and really would like to take it 20-30mi offshore. I am worried about the lack of offshore experience that I have. (none!). Other than the obvious things (VHS, spare everything and picking the right day) any suggestions? Maybe find an experienced offshore captain to ride with me ? Thanks.


Couple things: Fuel is much bigger consideration offshore-1/3 out, 1/3 back, take 1/3 for a safety margin-if you run 1/3 fuel out in flat sea, it can take a LOT more getting back in when sea kicks up. Single engine? Consider paying a little extra for offshore towing insurance. But problems seem to occur in bad weather, and it could be several hours before they get to you. Consider 15HP kicker. Dual batteries for sure. I carry handheld VHF in addition to mounted one. I plan to add handheld GPS (already have mounted one.) If you've been "navigating the bay" for 40 years, you probably haven't done much navigating lately. Get a waterproof chart and plot course each time, then match to GPS course. The first 1/2 dozen times may alarm you, but after that you will have some confidence. My biggest criticism of todays electronics is they are so good we get too reliant on them. Makes for a real "oh, ******! moment" when we lose them. Next, always make conservative decisions. Don't be hesitant to shut down a trip in your driveway, at the ramp, the inlet, or five miles out. Experienced offshore captain on board is good idea-invite one fishing, don't pay one. [grin]
Good luck

Edit: I checked out your boat model-it is what I would call "integral" motor mount as opposed to "open" transom- i.e., transom is actually designed around the motor mount, not just built squared off with a cut-out for motor. Nice rig.
Oh yeah-long anchor line is good idea, even if seldom used. I went ahead and bought 600 ft.

[raythecrab]

Thanks for the info, Outcast. I will take it all into consideration before venturing out. You are correct about "navigating". I have spent a lot of time out there (mostly above BB) and I probably have become complacent when it comes to real navigation. Had not thought of anchor rope... strange how the little things escape us. Guess it wouldn't be a little thing adrift 20 miles out with only the 250' of rope I carry.