The solution to the Real Fishery issue

[gcbuckner]

I have thought about what I am about to present for a long time and hopefully this idea will work. I have been meaning to present this to the public for some time, and finally the time seems right......

Everyone on this board loves Striped Bass, for differing reasons, but everyone loves our fishery and would love to see it thrive forever so our great great grandchildern can enjoy this amazing fishery as we have.

In order for this fishery to survive and thrive we need to address two issues:

1) Water Quality, which includes things like forage availability and so on

2) Regulate Harvest, which means ensuring we do not overcatch to the point of going below the sustainable yield. Sustainable yield simply means the population number that must survive in order for the species to be able to reproduce and sustain itself.

The water quality issue is very complex and yet very important. But no time in the near future do I see states requiring all residents to move inland 20 miles from all shore lines, nor do I see states closing all industrial businesses or power genterating facilities that operant near the waters edge, nor do I see dairy cows walking a few miles from the waters edge before they take a sh11, nor do I see chicken farms wastes not being spread on fields. Because of these reasons I will let someone else fight this fight, I would love to see the comercial Menhaden Fishing operation cut back drastically, because Menhaden are the life blood of a successful Striper fishery and the young Menhaden play a critically important role in the filtering of the water. Their methods are simply too efficient and too effective. Just ask any pound netter, how much more bait (menhaden) there were before these super efficient methods were put to work.

So I will address the issue of regulating harvest. I will start off by saying that fisheries science is a very inexact science. Often times by the time the data and science shows that a fishery is in serious decline it is too late. It is everyone's hope that this does not happen, so we need to take steps to ensure this does not happen.

Everyone who has every fished for Striped Bass in any manner has in some way been a part of this harvest. Even those who only catch and release, because at some point one of those striped bass you released did not survive. Remember it is ok to harvest (kill) striped bass, we just need to be sure not to kill too many.

The solution is simple----Limit the harvest
The problem with this simple solution is now the finger pointing and protecting ones own interests begin....
The Light Tackle Catch and Release Guys want to be able to fish the flats
The Trollers want to be able to troll
The meat hungry charterfishing parties want to keep fish or they won't charter
The pound netter wants to feed his family
The gill netter needs to pay off the new motor he put in his boat
And the list goes on and on.

I think I have an idea that will not put any of these user groups out. And to simplify things there are really only two user groups... COMMERCIAL and RECREATIONAL
And yes charter business are recs. as the limits being met are based on the customers (recs.) aboard the boat.

My Idea is not some earth shocking, amazing discovery: in fact it has worked very well in other states. In fact similar ideas have been used in Maryland to get farmers to stop growing a certain crop only a few years ago.

My idea is for the State of Maryland to adopt a commercial Striped Bass fishing Buyout, to encourage (pay) commercial fisherman to no longer target Striped Bass. For many waterman, the Striped Bass is their cash crop, so without the Striped Bass working on the water would no longer be worth it. Because of this the buyout needs to be substantial. This buyout would change their way of life for ever, many of these people have fishing in their family's job description for generations. And we cannot even consider this idea without just compensation. Every rec fisherman out there will reap the benefits of the buyout as they loose their livelyhood. So once again the compensation needs to be very generous, and should last for years. Maybe ten years, maybe 20 years. But it can be done. With commercial fishing being unpredictiable as it has been the last few years, I am sure there will be pleanty of takers who are willing to take the buyout. I don't know if a total buyout is called for or not, but if there are a few who stick with it and don't take the guaranteed money, there will be a much smaller number of waterman to keep tabs on. And there should be good money in it for them. Perhaps a mandatory buyout would be best? Either way, compensation should be very substantial.
Now you ask how is the state of MD to pay for all of these fisherman to not work, when the states budget is already in the shi^^er????

The answer is we will pay, we get the benefit, so we pay the bill. How you ask. Every fisherman who plan on catching Striped Bass recreationally will have to purchase a 5 or 10 dollar Striped Bass Permit. It will be explained to all complaning anglers that their monies will be used to drastically reduce the comercial harvest of Striped Bass. In addition there needs to be a donation option when you purchase your fishing license.....WOULD YOU LIKE TO DONATE ANY ADDITIONAL MONIES TO MARYLAND's COMMERCIAL STRIPED BASS FISHING BUYOUT PROGRAM? A flyer will be given out explaining the program to every license purchaser with addition information on where donations can be mailed to in order to support this effort.

And the comercial fisherman ask, why buy us out when the recs kill more fish than us??
The answer is simply ECONOMICS

One pound of Recreationally caught Striped Bass generates much more economic activity and profits than one pound of Commercially caught Striped Bass. In addition, the number of people in the commercial user group is much smaller and can effectivly be bought out.

If MD tries this, maybe other states will follow and I will not have to tell my grandchildren about this amazing fish that used to swim in the Bay called Striped Bass.

[Polkster]

I like the idea, I just wonder if $5-$10 per angler is going to be enough $ to substantially buy out the commercial guys. I personally would gladly pay $200 a year for my fishing sticker if I knew it would be enough even $500 to have a better chance of limiting out each time -I know I spend way more than that on tackle, fuel gas just for a chance at a few more fish each trip, but even that I don't know. I would be interested in the facts of how many guys are out there fishing commercially, and what amount of $$ would it take for them to stop fishing. The same program would be great for crabbing industry too. I know I would gladly pay more for my license if crabbing was better and if fewer pots were out there to dodge. I am sure there will be a ton more responses.

[27 sailfish]

Greg - Not sure if it is good or bad we think alike :D.
I've seen a few TFL up for sale - along with the Rockfish allocation.
DNR sometimes buys land to preserve it so why not buy back and then retire allocations. I think it was around $20,000.00.

I was also thinking of a $10.00 per angler Rockfish stamp. We had something similar years ago. The money was supposed to go to raising Rockfish in hatcheries to be released around 5-6 inches long - plus overtime for enforcement officers.

Raising Rockfish worked years ago - now it would even be better since there are much better ways to do it. Could even pay the netters to help - they still make money off the fish.

With everyone worried about the YOY index - common sense to start the stocking program back up.

[joe117]

I like the idea, I just wonder if $5-$10 per angler is going to be enough $ to substantially buy out the commercial guys. I personally would gladly pay $200 a year for my fishing sticker if I knew it would be enough even $500 to have a better chance of limiting out each time -I know I spend way more than that on tackle, fuel gas just for a chance at a few more fish each trip, but even that I don't know. I would be interested in the facts of how many guys are out there fishing commercially, and what amount of $$ would it take for them to stop fishing. The same program would be great for crabbing industry too. I know I would gladly pay more for my license if crabbing was better and if fewer pots were out there to dodge. I am sure there will be a ton more responses.

Shouldn't take too much money. Ask any commercial guy....he's just getting by.;-)

But seriously.....It sounds like a good plan to me and I wouldn't care if the rockfish stamp cost $50 if it meant that the commercials were no longer netting rockfish in Maryland.

[LES PA]

Why pay people for not working, we already have too much of that. Commerial Fishermen can get a land job like everybody else. Tighten up on the rules the only way to go. Have you heard this one? I live on the water or near the water so I keep what I want.My freezer is full? Remember the farmer buys his land!
Les

[HopPocket]

Mr Buckner, I respect you as one of the best charter fishermen South of the Bay Bridge, I applaud your efforts and courage to post your plan. And here comes the BUT, why do we, the tax payers have to pay you and your commrades NOT TO WORK ? My business is in the toilet, and nobody's paying me a red cent. If the economy dictates supply and demand, you must be adapt to trend.

Sorry. I love the Bay as much as the next person, but being rewarded for not fishing is BS.

[Hunter]

Greg - It is a great idea:clap:. Your way of looking at things is why you are kicking ass in this lousy economy and so many others are complaining about HOs and no customers. Hell, you outta be leading the MCBA with your progressive way of handling things.

To those that are complaining about why we have to pay others not to work: These funds will be used to buy someone out. They deserve to be paid. Think of it like buying some one's business; they have worked hard to build it up and deserve to be compensated to sell it to us. We will benefit. No more complaining about the netters. I don't think we will ever see game status for the Striper here in Maryland and if we do, a buyout would be part of the program anyway.

Zam - The people who buy wild caught stripers can buy farm raised striper. Maybe raising striper as a business would have a better chance with this arrangement. Many types of game are not available at your local safeway....Don

[bebopper]

Why pay people for not working, we already have too much of that. Commerial Fishermen can get a land job like everybody else. Tighten up on the rules the only way to go. Have you heard this one? I live on the water or near the water so I keep what I want.My freezer is full? Remember the farmer buys his land!
Les

You got it. Many on this board just don't get it. The AMSFC or whatever determines just how many rock can be harvested by everyone. Maryland may set a good example by reducing commercial licenses but that doesn't mean that North Carolina, Virginia or any other harvesting state will follow suit.
Good example is the push to open the EZ zone to commercial fishing for stripers. It failed by two votes this time but it will be back on the table. The Maryland catch is only part of the deal. Besides, has anyone noticed how the crab license buy back in Maryland and Virginia is going? Not very good at all.
I'm tired of reading how the watermen are starving with crab harvest down, oyster harvest down and fish catches down. BS, just how long can you stay in business when you not making any money? Maybe they aren't getting rich but they are making it obviously just like any other poor bastard who's busting his a$$ to make it. I watch those guys out there in the winter oystering, pulling pots in the summer and I don't envy them one bit. In fact I went and pulled pots on a commercial boat one day and thought that this a is sh.. for the birds. Especially when you pull them up with only a few legal crabs in them. And the poor oysterman that has to go out there in low 30 degree temps and tong, or dredge oysters, and then cull them I really feel for them. People just don't do these things to starve in the end.
The entire fisherery problem has to do with the states and their fisheries depts. And the thing they should do is not listen to any user group for input on how to manage the industry. Because that is what they have done for too many years and look where it has gotten us. All three user groups (recs, comms and charterboat capts) have said the same thing over the years at one time or another, "listen to what the biologists and scientists tell us". Then when they listen to them the retort from the user groups is the scientists don't know what they are talking about they're not out there everyday. Back in the '90's the state wanted to increase the rec quota on stripers. Rich Novotny, then head of the MSSA was against this. Rich had conservation on his mind. Rightfully so. I met him at the Balto. boat show one evening and advised him ":Rich you better agree to the increase beacause if you don't they'll windup giving it the comms or charterboats (charters had a seperate quota at the time) because they feel there enough bass to harvest more. And in the future when we, the recs, want an increase in quota they'll come back with we offered you one and you didn't want it then so we're not going to give it to you now" This scenario could also happen if they wanted to increase the comm quota and the recs oppsed it because they weren't going to get an increase and state would replky you should have taken one when we offered it.
Unfortunately many TFers have come into the fishery in the last 15 years and are unaware just how things have progressed since the the mid'70's. This is not a put down to those newcomers in any way. I think there may be a book about the history of the striped bass saga as far as the history leading up to the moritorium and the success of it. My memory is getting fuzzy but I went through all of it and there is far more then has ever been discussed on this board. And I won't even get into the mutant eggs and diseased females from Mercury and pcb poisoning that were showing up in the '70's and '80s. How many have ever heard of "Stripers Unlimited"? Let me know.

[HopPocket]

I have one more thing to add, then I'm gonna sit down and STFU.

Until Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia come up with a comprehensive, unilateral agreement to help the Bay, all proposals and suggestions are mute.

Thank you and Good Night.

[Hunter]

But what about the people that don't want farm raised fish, maybe they want fish raised natually, We should always have that choice. Why not make them a commercial fish only? that would help the population to, you could buy farm raised fish and put them in a pond and catch them

We can kick this around all day and probably never convince one another. If I could buy some wild caught venison at my local grocery store, you might convince me. Hey Zam, hope to meet you one day. I agree with you on most stuff, but not this..Don

[Francis]

I mean, correct me if I am wrong but hasn't the essentially proven to be a wildly successful program up and down the coast?

I agree on the buy back not the take away. In all reality, I don't think we're taking about that much money in the whole grand scheme of things anyway. I'd pay an extra 100 bucks a year to make a program like this work. That's the price of one day of fishing . . .

[Fishing Chef]

For those that say why should we pay for them to stop. Because we are asking them to. They are not crying poor and saying come pay us. We are asking them to stop working. There would have to be a reasonable compesation for that. It is just like when a corporation wants to make cuts, and offers people an early retirement. They offer because it is in the best interest of everyone involved.

For those that want to buy rockfish at the grocery store. I am in the food business, and don't be so sure what you are buying is local. We live in a Global marketplace anymore and supplies are shipped all over the world.

[WHACKMASTER]

Greg,
Very well put! Id pay more for my stamps if I had to.

Jeff

[klramp]

I would not mind paying some extra money for a fishing license, but I am afraid the extra money would only go to the General Fund instead of to a Fisheries Program.

Now I would not mind getting a Rockfish Stamp with tags similar to when Trophy season opened back up, but they could make this East Coast wide, not just Maryland. The scary part is that this would have to be Federally regulated, but they are already setting our limits anyway. So if you get a Rockfish Stamp with say, 10 tags you could use them up and down the Coast for that year.

One way to get some of the Commercial guys out of the water is to buy back their licenses, at fair market value, when they want to sell or transfer them out of their name. This will not immediately get a large number off the water, but it will over time while letting them put food on their table and not feel force out.

The Recs could give some to, say going to one fish per day all year long until the smaller fish are at a more acceptable numbers (according to what every group or agency makes the final decision). Once again, it should be East Coast enforced.

Now what I don't understand is the constant pointing the fingers at Maryland (Commercials and Recs), a Rockfish out of the water and on the table is a Rockfish that can't reproduce. Does it matter if it is in Maryland in April, North Carolina in January or in the Northeast in July? If it is on the table it can not reproduce.

[jwinds]

I would buy a stcker if I knew that the money was not going to be diverted to some other political coffers. As far as wild vs farm raised rockfish....potentially less toxins in the fish (for those that are concerned).

[Francis]

FWIW straight off the MWA classifieds:

For Sale: Hook and Line License with rockfish endorsement and gillnet. $12,000. Please call 410-925-0682. (Posted 11/3/09)

For Sale: TFL and all associate gear with rockfish allocation. $15,000. Call 410-310-9758. (Posted 9/9/09

For Sale: Hook and line license with rockfish endorsement. $12,500. Will consider splitting license. Call 301-704-0277. (Posted 9/2/09)

For Sale: TFL with all associated gear, $300 pot and rockfish allocation. $15,000. Call 301-934-9422 (Posted 8/11/09)

For Sale: TFL and all associated gear, includes rockfish allocation.Call Larry Cox at 443-532-0828 or e-mail at 2chessie@comcast.net (Posted 8/06/09)

or Sale: TFL and all associated gear, 900 pot and Rockfish Allocation. $16,000. Also, 1998 32' Kinnamon with fiberglass bottom - needs work but GREAT boat, Great deal for $20,000 obo. Call 443-850-4233 or 443-850-4232. (Posted 8/10/09)

That would be a half dozen off the market in two months. And they are already for sale so nobody would be taken out of buisness.

[Gerald]

Here's an idea that just may work and makes a lot more since in my mind. Seems whats good for the goose maybe good for the gander. If its about conservation of the fish and not the money. Whatever limits are set, why not have everyone abide by them and leave'm in place all season. That would make a lot more since and not pit one group against another or change the rules around a date. No pre-season, no kill season, no difference between a member of the mcba or a recreational guy. It would just be a bunch of fisherman. I'm sure it make everyone look as each other as fisherman. Ya still got one make'n a living at and one doing it for fun but your not separating them over it. And you would likely get them to work together in managing the fishery. It would make the DNR's job a heck of a lot easier as well.

[Reel ExCuse]

It's an interesting idea worth looking at.

Anyone know how it was handled when other states banned commercial fishing for striped bass? Am I correct to assume Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut and New Jersey had some type of license buyback program? Or did they just shut down the fishery?

[klramp]

Francis, thanks for posting. It is a way to reduce numbers and NOT put working men out of business.

[Brandon]

Greg

I moved the thread not to take away from your idea, but rather because we do have several other "conservation and policy" threads going on the main board and given it's still fishing season and there are fishing reports and fishing happening I do not want that board getting overrun per say. I did leave a redirect on the board that will last a few days so people still can find this thread.

All I will say is that if cleaned up the water issue in the bay we would not need to talk about closing the commercial fishing or even limit ourselves. Bottom line is if we spent as much time on clean water we might clean the water up and have more fish so all of us could fish. At some point we are going to have to spend the time, if not the pie is going to keep getting smaller and it will lead to us fighting ourselves.

Brandon

[BILL H]

Last evening, I heard an interesting story on NPR. It was based on an example on a Pacific Island (I can't remember where). The economy was basically a simple one, you either harvested fish from the coral reefs or you harvested palm oil from the island's trees. The cost of entry into each was minimal, and it was easy to switch between the two.

The reefs were being over-fished. The planned solution was to make it more profitable for the palm-oil business. I believe they raised the price that was being paid for palm oil.

After several years, the surprise was that the reefs were even more over-fished, in spite of the fact that the islanders were getting a good living from palm oil. Actually, it was because they were getting a good living from palm oil. They no longer had to work as hard or as long in the palm trees, and they had more time for fishing. And darn it, they liked to fish. It was traditional, and they were not about to change voluntarily.

The story went on to say that commercial or subsistence fishing communities, in general, are self-selecting in a specific type of individual who wants to earn a livelihood in that way. It was very difficult to wean such communities away from their lifestyle.

The same logic applies in the Bay. It is not going to be easy, even with positive economic incentives, to change the waterman's way of life. Any voluntary approach, in which we provided only the carrots, and withheld even the thought of the stick, might have little chance of succeeding.

[chartruseking]

I can say from experience that a buy out program would most likely work. Maryland did the same thing a short time ago with the tobacco farmers. Now, I was a tobacco farmer, I can say it is about the hardest work anyone will ever do. Most farmers like most watermen, were up in age and getting tired of having to work themselves do death for a dollar. My grandfather was 73 years old when he died on the farm doing what he loved. He raised tobacco til the day he died. I have seen him work himself to a point where he could hardly make it back to the house, all to out a good meal on the table for his family that night. After he passed, we decided to take the buy out, along with about 98% of maryland farmers. It was a good way to give a farmer, who has worked his ASS of all his life, a good retirement. This was not paid for at one lump sum. It was based over a 10 year span. The way I look at it, most watermen are up in age, I know, I see them everyday, I am sure these guys are looking for a way out. It is the only way of life they know, you cannot expect them to just stop fishing for no reason and try to make a living some other way. its not going to happen!! I for one, would be willing to do what it takes to ensure that these guys who have worked threw storms, lost gear, work day in and day out even if hurt or sick, and some who have even lost their lives, have somewhat of a "relief" of not worrying about the next day, to live the rest of their lives with somewhat of a retirement. These guys deserve the utmost respect from every angler out there. Rec guys and even us charter capts. can choose our days, those guys go out no matter what the condition.

Capt. Kyle

[goose70]

For those that say why should we pay for them to stop. Because we are asking them to. They are not crying poor and saying come pay us. We are asking them to stop working. There would have to be a reasonable compesation for that. It is just like when a corporation wants to make cuts, and offers people an early retirement. They offer because it is in the best interest of everyone involved.

For those that want to buy rockfish at the grocery store. I am in the food business, and don't be so sure what you are buying is local. We live in a Global marketplace anymore and supplies are shipped all over the world.

I think that there is another reason, but it would require a deviation of how the payments are made. I think that we all benefit by having more aquaculture. ZAM, even assuming that many people care about wild v. "farmed" Stripers, it's really a Hobson's choice because in virtually every fishery in the world, wild harvest has either proven or is in the process of proving to be unsustainable. So the choice is really wild caught for a little while longer, then nothing, or aquaculture now and into the future.

This is also a potential significant economic boost not just to individual watermen, but to the Chesapeake region. The problem, I'll bet, has to do with barriers to entry in the form of antiquated laws that discourage aquaculture (although many of these were recently fixed in MD) and the fact that most watermen probably do not have the money to start up an aquaculture operation. So, instead of paying watermen not to fish, the State should continue to increase the availability of grants and loans to start up aquaculture practices, train watermen who wish to enter the business, etc.

This can be a win for the Bay, and win for the seafood consumer, a win for the watermen and a win for the recreational fishing industry.

[jnashed]

Very good ideas!!! Couple of things.

First, It seems a lot of watermen are older and maybe finding it harder to make ends meet. I imagine it was a hardscrabble life when things are good. So this has potential. Why not help out the guys, many who may be getting out now anyway. It is a hard truth that the potential monitary benefit for the state comes more from recreational fishing and all the businesses around it then the commercial harvesting and selling of caught fish. Again Florida (a tourist state I know) banned many nets in the estuaries and the fishing took off. The Chesapeake is a big estuary also. Water quality is a very tough nut to crack, but as Paxfish has said many times, the water quality although bad has not changed a lot in many years. Also even with terrible water quality the Hudson Bay striper population is doing well.

Second the aquaculture of many fish and shellfish is problematic (ie salmon farming in the Northwest) The aquaculture of rockfish is not though. First it uses hybred striped bass and white bass, second it is not done in the open water, third it is often and can be done with Tilapia, a fish very well suited to farming. I know many of us would like to say, it won't taste as good, etc. And maybe we are right, but I'd like to see the blind taste test first. I thought the same about beer, until I saw a blind taste test in Consumer Reports of inexpensive American beers. Strohs won with Papst Blue Ribbon third. Seems most buy beer on the lable and what they are used to, not necessarily taste.

Last, this promotion of aquaculture has to also include a serious effort on Oyster farming too. Another well proven aquaculture success. Why harvest the last 1% when we can grow better, better tasting ones here. Silly

I really liked the suggestion by Greg. Great idea! Now maybe put it together with auaculture of striped bass and oysters and we may really be on to something.

Jim

[WiFiGuy]

Great ideas and many thanks for taking the time to write them down...but I hold little hope that any of the ideas discussed in this thread will ever be put into practice. I apologize for being so negative, but, the critical mass necessary to effect change won't come from a few thousand guys who fish and mess around on an Internet message forum.

My two cents:

Our so-called conservation policies are essentially window-dressing designed to give the general public the appearance that our government is actually doing something to keep our marine species viable. For me, the managment programs we see today are nothing more than efforts by our elected and appointed officials to cover their own backsides should the unthinkable happen. And that unthinkable event would be the ding their careers would take if responsibility for a species collapse (rockfish?) were to be pinned on them in a national spotlight.

Unfortunately, the the actual viability of species such as rockfish, crabs, weakfish, menhaden, etc. does not really drive policy. What drives policy, in my opinion, is the money flowing from commercial entities who rely on fish and shellfish for their businesses. Though not villains, they are forced to make investments and throw support behind lawmakers in the hopes that their interests stay protected.

The problem with all of this easy to see from where I sit. Unless something major happens that gets the attention of millions of voters, the recs, comms and poluters will all continue to be allowed to overfish and ruin our Bays and Oceans. The cash will continue to flow back to the politicians and the management orgs will from time to time make changes (banning C & R trolling) that won't actually accomplish much.

[Matt]

all I will say is if we had some ham we could have some ham and eggs if we had some eggs

[jhub]

I like the idea and would gladly pay for a Striped Bass Stamp but, I would also add the buying out of MH fishery.
I believe buying out the MH fishery would go along way to cleaning up the water as well as adding all the food the Bass would need.