The Bay and the ICC - tax dollars at work

[goose70]

Perhaps this is better suited for the policy/conservation board, but since so many Bay Bridge toll/SmartTrip/blame government threads have cropped up here, I figured I’d start on this board and let it be moved.

The InterCounty Connector is an 18-mile, six lane highway designed to connect I-95 with I-270. Its total cost is projected to be $2.4 billion. The state is constructing it as I type. Both the current and past MD administrations have supported it. It cuts through a fair amount of sensitive undeveloped land, including wetlands and the last naturally spawning trout population in central MD.

Although it was originally proposed to alleviate traffic, even optimistic traffic studies indicate that it would have little impact on beltway traffic, for example, and save most drivers who use it only a few minutes of commuting time.

It is a toll road and was supposed to be funded through those tolls. This week, however, Marylanders learned that drivers who use those tolls will be charged over $6 EACH WAY if they drive the road's entire length. Current estimates (which some consider very optimistic) are that the tolls will cover only $60 million of the taxpayers’ $100 million debt and service obligations over the next five years. The $40 million shortfall is expected to be siphoned off from other tolls, including – you guessed it – the Bay Bridge.

Imagine what that $40 million dollars would do for oyster restoration, for stormwater or wastewater improvements or – novel idea – fixing our current infrastructure. Imagine how many commuter buses we could put into service (about 266), which would take over 13,000 polluting cars off of our crowded roads.

Now consider that the environmental impact of this road – and associated environmental costs -- will not stop at its construction. Developers are licking their chops – as they do with each new road that we build – over the previously untouched land that this will open for new development. This means more impervious surface, less filtering forest, more pollution for the Bay. And of course, this development will jam this road with traffic just as it has jammed most of our other roads. The State admits that the ICC could be jammed in as little as ten years.

It is easy to blame “government” for this – and government certainly deserves it – but we cannot ignore the fact that this road is happening because the people of Maryland demanded it. We shunned public transportation, carpooling, or anything other than a new road. And now we have it, plus a hefty price tag that includes more harm to our Bay, and by extension, to our sport.

I took the time to write all of this not because this particular boondoggle can be stopped, but because similar projects are being proposed throughout the state in much more environmentally sensitive areas (Mattawoman Creek, for example). Even if a person does not care about fishing, clean water or the air that he and his kids suck in, I figured that he might care about how this type of “planning” impacts his wallet.

[mgardner1]

Imagine how many commuter buses we could put into service (about 266), which would take over 13,000 polluting cars off of our crowded roads.

That is a very optimistic expectation. I don't know about others, but if i were to try to take public transportation to work, it would take me anywhere from 2-3 hours. I don't know how much difference 266 buses would make, considering the number of people in the area that make long commutes.

One problem with the current public transportation arrangement, and roads as well for that matter, is that they are all geared toward getting people into DC. I think that there are probably many more people working outside of DC in the VA and MD 'burbs than there are inside DC. The spokes designed to move traffic into and out of the city do little for those moving around outside the beltway.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think the ICC is going to hurt traffic. Environmental impacts are another story.

Until everyone lives within walking distance of their work, traffic is going to be a big problem.

[goose70]

That is a very optimistic expectation. I don't know about others, but if i were to try to take public transportation to work, it would take me anywhere from 2-3 hours. I don't know how much difference 266 buses would make, considering the number of people in the area that make long commutes.

One problem with the current public transportation arrangement, and roads as well for that matter, is that they are all geared toward getting people into DC. I think that there are probably many more people working outside of DC in the VA and MD 'burbs than there are inside DC. The spokes designed to move traffic into and out of the city do little for those moving around outside the beltway.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think the ICC is going to hurt traffic. Environmental impacts are another story.

Until everyone lives within walking distance of their work, traffic is going to be a big problem.

You are right that the public transportation infrastructure is geared towards taking folks to DC (and Baltimore, to a less organized extent). However, I doubt that the numbers of buses or the ridership is optimistic, based on the figures I've seen for the DC commuter bus service. The buses I take to DC are packed, and that's without much of an advertising effort for this service.

But a large part of the problem is that we continue to accommodate so much growth outside of the cities. This build wherever we want mentality has serious environmental, public safety and economic consequences. I'm guilty of contributing to the problem, too. But the idea of further expanding suburban and rural growth, rather than focusing more of it in already urbanized areas, is part of the problem. The ICC and similar projects contribute to and enhance that problem, as we are seeing.

To put it bluntly, continuing down this path will bankrupt us just as surely as a Wall Street meltdown. And to bring it back to fishing, we'll be hard pressed to improve the Bay (or halt its decline) if we focus on Omega while permitting this type of development.

[Dashaway]

I currently commute a route parallel to the ICC and don't consider using it at that fee even if it saves 20 minutes.

[JFP123]

Two things.

1. I wont use it either at that price. I commute daily from 95-270. I'll sit in traffic before I pay 12$/day or even 8$/day.

2. We crossed the bridge of paving "sensitive areas" long ago. Not just crossed it but , bombed, burned, and peed on it. Complaining now is a bit late. That road is desperately needed, not just to relieve beltway traffic but to unclog local Montgomery county roads. Its easy for you to sit there and complain because you dont need to use it. Also easy for you to suggest "others" use public transportation.

[arlington]

while i fully agree with you about the environmental impact of these roads and the subsequent developments, the problem with moving moe people into already over-popoulated (or about-to-be-overpopulated urban areas is the the problems and congestion they cause. as in: have you recently seen ballston or what is surely to follow the columbia pike "redevelopment" here in no va?

bil

[goose70]

Two things.

1. I wont use it either at that price. I commute daily from 95-270. I'll sit in traffic before I pay 12$/day or even 8$/day.

2. We crossed the bridge of paving "sensitive areas" long ago. Not just crossed it but , bombed, burned, and peed on it. Complaining now is a bit late. That road is desperately needed, not just to relieve beltway traffic but to unclog local Montgomery county roads. Its easy for you to sit there and complain because you dont need to use it. Also easy for you to suggest "others" use public transportation.

JFP, you know what they say about assume. But I assure you that
I do much more than "sit here" and complain. While I’m sure that it pales in comparison to your actions, I am very actively involved, in addition to my day job, on a number of land use issues concerning impervious surface. (Just because we have made poor decisions in the past does not provide an excuse to continue to repeat them.) And I take public transportation almost every day. Perhaps not everyone has this option, but far more people can do it (or carpool, or telecommute) than currently do, and they would save time, money and reduce stress. And more such options would be available if the public demanded it.

As for the road being "desperately" needed:rolleyes:, the studies don't seem to support that unless we've set a really low bar for "desperate" (which may actually be the case in this no-pain, accommodate-my-every-desire society).

I think this thread is an example of why a Bay recovery will be so hard. The will just isn't there if it impacts us in the least or requires any change in behavior. We only want others (Omega, other commercial fishermen, trollers, "the government") to make the changes.

[buddabud]

..

[Emptypockets]

IMHO if the planners would stop and really look at the traffic problems they may see where the problems really lay and quit wasting our money on a little road that no one wants to pay high tolls for.
Roads like the beltway and Rt 95 and others like that have become more of inter-city roadways, not what they where originally designed for.
If the states would get together and build a expressway that would only be for long distance travel there by not having many exits or entrances but have only exits and entrances to major cities this would allow truckers and travelers to run unobstructed for many miles and the road wouldnt need to be very wide 2 lanes each way maybe this would also remove many cars trucks etc off the city roads. Just think how many people from Baltimore north to Maine have to drive around the DC beltway to get to richmond or somewhere further south.
Over the years as be build stuff by the time things are completed they are already undersized or out dated and we never build in room for expansion.
Now they are complaining about the 270 corridor and the amount of traffic back up it has, so they are talking widing again or express lanes or something, but if you don't fix the bottle neck nothing will happen to correct it.
Remember this is just my humble opinion

[27 sailfish]

Might be a pipe dream - but how about a reduced tax if you live within 20 miles of your workplace ?

I know some people who moved to Pa. - about 20 miles up I-83 over the Md/Pa line because of cheaper housing. They work in Md - some as far south as Wheaton. This is roughly 80 miles EACH way :eek:.

Same with most areas around here - no one seems to be close to their work.

When I trailer south on Rt. 4 this time of year - I am on the road later then normal due to sunrise at 7:00. The amount of cars streaming north to DC has to be seen to be believed. Most have one person in them.

One thing that would really help car pooling would be safe/secure carpool lots. Nothing worse then coming back to find your car has been broken into. The POS thieves know few people will be there from about 9:00 am until 3-4:00 pm.

Give people who carpool or live close to work a big tax break - I bet more would.

[JFP123]

As for the road being "desperately" needed:rolleyes:, the studies don't seem to support that unless we've set a really low bar for "desperate" (which may actually be the case in this no-pain, accommodate-my-every-desire society).



Well, we are spending a lot of $$ on it. Somehow it was concluded that it was necessary. I am guessing a lot of the "studies" you are citing were conducted by someone with an agenda.

I conduct my own studies. Twice daily. For 10 years. Driving around MC during either rush hour is a horrifying experience by any measure on nearly any road including the beltway. I can assure you the road is necessary.

Its easy to say I should live closer to work too. I do, to my wifes work, she can walk.

Is it odd to think that the 2 biggest cities in MD, Baltimore and Rockville/Gaithersburg, be connected in some semblance of a direct fashion? Do you know what an ordeal it is for MC residents to get to BWI?

How much pollution is created by cars idling on the beltway and at untold stoplights on 410, Randolph Rd, 28, 355?

Cost aside, I would be in the ICC 2x/day and I think many others would and will too.

[Grady23]

Given that the ICC was NOT -- REPEAT NOT --- Presented to the public at anytime in the first 10 years of it's "planning" as a TOLL ROAD is absolute BS. The original cost estimate for the road was abot 20 Mil in 1969. NOW is 2.4 BILLION I should have invested in the Toll road instead of stocks. The other hit is the Easy Pass system, which will be mantatory or you get socked with an addtional $3 fee for them to mail you a bill and not to mention that the State of Maryland now also wants an addtional $20 user fee when the easy pass is purchased in this state.
WELL -- The rich in Montgomery and PG county finally are going to have what they've always wanted -- Their OWN Private road --- Built with EVERYONES tax dollars --- Who the hell can afford $3200 more a year just to drive to/from work everday??? BTW -- That doesn't include weekends.
I'm surprised that they haven't proposed extending the road to route 50 and a private lane on Rt50 so they can get to Annapolis quicker!

[Grady23]

From 27Sailfish --- "One thing that would really help car pooling would be safe/secure carpool lots. Nothing worse then coming back to find your car has been broken into. The POS thieves know few people will be there from about 9:00 am until 3-4:00 pm. "

My sister commutes up Rt#4 and this is EXACTLY why she quit leaving her car in the "ride-On" lots after 3 break-ins.

[JFP123]

Given that the ICC was NOT -- REPEAT NOT --- Presented to the public at anytime in the first 10 years of it's "planning" as a TOLL ROAD is absolute BS. The original cost estimate for the road was abot 20 Mil in 1969. NOW is 2.4 BILLION I should have invested in the Toll road instead of stocks. The other hit is the Easy Pass system, which will be mantatory or you get socked with an addtional $3 fee for them to mail you a bill and not to mention that the State of Maryland now also wants an addtional $20 user fee when the easy pass is purchased in this state.
WELL -- The rich in Montgomery and PG county finally are going to have what they've always wanted -- Their OWN Private road --- Built with EVERYONES tax dollars --- Who the hell can afford $3200 more a year just to drive to/from work everday??? BTW -- That doesn't include weekends.
I'm surprised that they haven't proposed extending the road to route 50 and a private lane on Rt50 so they can get to Annapolis quicker!

I agree almost entirely.

The only thing I would say is that MC and PG residents pay quite a bit of the tax burden simply because of the high populations, nevermind any affluence.

Also the same argument can be made about any road. Mainly PG/AA residents use 50, mainly Fred/MC residents use 270 etc. In big states it is obviously far worse.