I need engine help...

[hippie]

Well, it's beginning to look like another year of no fishing for me. I have a 1988 350 Mercruiser rated at 260 hp. We rebuilt the engine last fall and all spring I've been trying to get it started. The engine cranks over good enough and has spark to the plugs, it's getting gas and has compression but will not even try to start. We checked the timing about 15 times now and it is right on. 5 mechanics have looked at it and all say it should start but we can not even get a "pop" from it. So, any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Bob

[Bob H.]

Are you sure the timing isn't 180-deg out? Very common problem, it's easy to drop the distributor in wrong. If you got spark, fuel and compression it's timing.

[hippie]

We checked that over and over again. I was thinking that but according to the shop manuel it isn't. The valves were closed and did not move when the mark on the harmonic balancer came up to meet the timing tab. I thought it was mistakenly on the exhaust stroke not the compression but it turned out to be right. 5 mechanics looked at it and cannot understand why it does not fire. All told, we have about 70-75 hrs each on this timing, spark, coil, carb. problem.
Thanks for you advice and should you think of anything else please let me know, Bob

[Bob H.]

I still think you're 180 out. All of the valves are closed twice in a complete (4) cycle. Pull the distributor and turn the crank to TDC again and replace the distributor.

[hippie]

Bob, I truly hope you are right. As for the reinstallation of the distributer; the manuel says to go to #1 on TDC on compression. Lift the distributer out and count 6 clicks (teeth on the oil pump and distributer worm gear at the bottom of the shaft). And then push the distributer into place and immediately pull it out again. Every 6 teeth changes the timing 30 degrees. So, I must count 6 teeth 6 times and insert the distributer for 180 degrees, Right? If you know of an easier way please let me know. Another fellow routinely starts on a 350 by changing the plug wires on top of the distributer cap. He follows the firing order but puts #1 where #8 was. Then #8 where #4 was etc. When done he tries to start the engine but if he has no luck he starts over again and moves the plug wires 1 sequence again, until it eventually starts. Does that make sense to you? Or I could start by putting #1 where #6 is usually at on the dist. cap and then follow the firing order which would give me the 180 deg. needed to come back into correct timming. What would you do? Thank you, Bob

[Bob H.]

Install a compression gauge, or use a finger, over the #1 cylinder spark plug hole. As you rotate the crank the pressure should increase. Many people feel the pressure increase at the beginning of the exhaust stroke and assume that's the compression stoke. Rotate the harmonic balancer until there's pressure and the balancer line aligns with Zero on the timing tab. When you install the distributor make sure the #1 wire goes to where the rotor is pointing. Firing order is 18436572. The clue is that it has spark and fuel but no pop. The cylinder that's firing isn't the cylinder on the compression stroke. You can play musical wires but it shouldn't be necessary.

[hippie]

I hope to get to the boat on Tues. I will pull and rotate the dist. 180 deg. I'll post the results on Wed. Thank you, Bob

[hippie]

Oh Bob, I forgot to tell you that in March we did get a backfire or two out the carb. It turned out the wires on #4 and #6 were crossed at the plugs. We put them on right and since then no "pop" nor anything. Thanks again, Bob

[hippie]

Well, I was at the boat today. I checked the distributer placement and #1 cylinder and both were on the money. I then said hey, I can't mess it up anymore than it is so I pulled the distributer and randomly put it back in at spot and actually got a "pop" or two from it, but that was it. A mechanic watching says to get another motor. Says this motor is broke and no one can figure out what the problem is so the only choice I have is to buy another motor. I guess I'll sit in my boat in the storage lot and pretend I'm on the water. Thanks again, Bob

[Lone Ranger]

When you rebuilt it,are you sure the Timing Chain and Gears where installed correctly?

[Bob H.]

Mike, I thought the same thing. I was assuming that someone putting together the engine could line up the dimples in the cam and crank. It's time to pull the timing cover and recheck assembly. If not carefull the cam can rotate when the timing chain goes on but it's one of those things that should be triple checked before installing the cover and harmonic balancer.

[hippie]

yes, we double checked everything. I pulled the distributer again and put it in another time (different from the first two times) and now it will not "pop" but coughs up through the carb. So the timing is making a difference but yet even when it was on the money it would not try to start! I can't figure this out. Please help, thank you, Bob

[Lone Ranger]

yes, we double checked everything. I pulled the distributer again and put it in another time (different from the first two times) and now it will not "pop" but coughs up through the carb. So the timing is making a difference but yet even when it was on the money it would not try to start! I can't figure this out. Please help, thank you, Bob

Not talking about the Distributor postion........Talking about the Crankshaft and Camshaft Gear alignment. Cam Gear has a dot,Crankshaft Gear has a dot.....Crankshaft Gear should be in the 12 o'clock postion and the Camshaft Gear [dot] should be in the 6 o'clock postion..[dot to dot]. when it was assembled.If NOT,,,It ain't going to run,,,unless it is mabe a tooth off...And then not well.

[Bob H.]

One cam gear tooth in either direction it will usually pop. The 350 is flexible and will usually start/run from 8deg btdc to 12 atdc. I've seen engines assembled with the crank and cam dots both at 12 o'clock...but they won't start. The Thunderbolt ignition can develop and attitude but if it pops the spark should be ok. Hopefully the rebuild included new plugs, wires, rotor and cap.

[hippie]

Yes, with the "bolt ons" most everything was brand new. Starter and solenoid, oil pump, distributer was rebuilt, new wires, dist. cap, rotor, plugs, carb was rebuilt twice, new slave solenoid at 50 amp breaker, alternator was rebuilt, stall shut off switch was checked out and is ok. The neutral switch is ok. Put in a new thermostat and two new batteries were added.

Basically what we did was replace the head gaskets and a general cleanup. My associate is retired from a major nascar racing team where he designed engines. He was the brains behind this job. When he looked at the bottom end and top of the pistons he said he thought some one had already replaced the engine because it was so clean. We did not mess with the timing chain nor cam shaft. We discovered a water jacket was plugged at the head gasket. Also the entire odd side banks' head was loose. We had the heads checked for warpage and there was none and the valves were in excellent condition. We did not replace the lifters because we did not replace the cam. The push rods were all put back into the same rockers were the they came out from. Our compression was good before we tore it apart. Now we only had between 75 and 78 lbs in all cylinders when we checked the compression (dry check). A mechanic came by as we trying to start the engine and said the engine was too tight. He backed the valve adjustment off and couldn't understand why it would not start. I worked with it and nothing so I put the valves back to where they should be and get only an ocasional "pop". I called 4 mechanics last week but none returned my call. As always, if any of you have an idea please let me know, thank you, Bob

[Bob H.]

What a mess. I'm confused since you mentioned the bottom end. Have you run this engine before - why did you take it apart? I think your first post started in the middle of the saga and the early stuff not yet mentioned holds the key. How many cylinders are low on compression? If the engine was so clean how did the water jacket get plugged? If you had the bottom end exposed you should have checked the journal's with plasti-gage but that's not affecting compression. If compression was good when you pulled the heads then something got screwed up on reassembly and it needs to come apart. You could do a leak down test, but since compression was good with no changes other than a new head gasket it all needs to come apart anyway.

[hippie]

Bob H. and Lone Ranger, Here is some background that may help. I have owned the boat for 10 yrs without an engine problem. 5 yrs. ago the fuel tank developed a leak and a dealer/marina on Back Creek replaced it. Not long after that I could only get it to 1200 RPMs then it would bog down. It would start fine and idle perfect. Then it started to get warm (never hot enough to worry) but I did not like that. I took the plugs out and on the "odd" bank they were a little oily and black. The "even" side was perfect. So, we diagnosed the head gasket but there was no water in the crank case oil. We tore the heads off and on the "odd" side found the one water jacket to be plugged the thickness of the gasket (about 1/16"). When we lifted the head gasket off the dirt peeled right off and all was clean inside the jacket. In addition the head on the "odd" bank was loose. We thought that clearing the water jacket would solve the heating problem and with new head gaskets, new head bolts and tightening the heads to the proper spec. that would solve our problem but little did we know that we wouldn't be able to start the engine! So there you have it. I'll email my associate in Fla. and ask about the cam shaft sprocket and crank sprocket but as far as I know they were not touched. I'll post what he says about the sprockets. Thanks again, Bob

[hippie]

OK, I just looked up what you both said and that could very well be the problem. I see how the dots align and it shouldn't be a giant hassle to pull off the timing chain cover to look and see where the dots are aligned. I didn't hear from my assoc. so I will check it out myself to be sure. It really does make sense and I would never have thought of it, Thank you both, Bob

[Bob H.]

Considering the engine's age there could be a worn sprocket and/or stretched chain causing timing problems. You didn't say how many plugs were oily but a head gasket usually doesn't result in multiple oily plugs without other problems. I'd lean more towards a bad set of valve seals and/or clogged oil returns. Of course bigger problems would be the valve guides and piston oil control rings. The skin coating over the water jacket says there's a water problem cuz the water pressure should blow it out. I bet if you pull a freeze plug on the odd side you'll find a bunch of rust. None of this explains the low compression unless the deck is warped or you bent some valves. Did you lap the valves when you put the heads back together? Also, if the engine was bogging at such a low rpm it was probably running lean which could cause the heat problem. Fresh water or salt water cooled? Heat exchanger been rodded lately? I'm also curous how the one mech determined the valves were too tight - hyd or solid lifters? I'm assuming the lifters are hyd and they're easy to set using the EO-IC method: spin oil pump to pressurize the lifters, back off rocker nut until push rod is free, tighten until the push rod is snug to spin, add another 1/2 turn on the rocker nut. I know it's a pain but considering the engine's age I'd probably pull it and freshen it up the right way and enjoy another 10 years or so of no problems.

[hippie]

Bob, All 4 plugs were oily on the "odd" bank. (the side that had the water obstruction and loose head). All 4 plugs on the "even" bank were good. I forgot to mention that I put a new circulating pump on because we found the back "divider" was busted on the original pump. (basically it was producing no water pressure). I don't know what you mean by lapping the valves. We adjusted the valves by starting at #1 cylinder at TDC. We took the lash out then went 1/4 turn tight. We then turned the crank to #8 cylinder and did the same. We continued doing this for all 8 cylinders staying in firing order. The other mechanic then listened to the engine and claimed the engine was too tight and loosened the valves. We took our compression reading at that time. All 8 cylinders were pretty much the same at between 75 and 78 lbs. dry test. I looked at the valves and at TDC there was so much valve lash so I tightened them via the shop manuel. I put #1 on TDC and watched as the two valves for that cylinder closed and then I took the valve lash out and tightened down 3/4 of a turn. The engine cranked over fine but no trying to start. As for the engine bogging at a low rpm, no one had touched the carb and it was adjusted as it had been for the last 10 yrs. The engine is not a sealed water cooled set up. It draws from the bay water via the O.D. impellor to the circulating pump, through the engine and out the manifolds. I don't know what you mean by "rodding" the heat exchange units. We took the exhaust manifolds off and they had no rust or dirt in them and they weren't rusted out and thin. The risers were also in good condition with no blockage or rust. We did run a wire brush through the water holes and clean the manifolds and risers good before putting them back on. The lifters are hydraulic and before we initially adjusted the valves (when we were still assembling the engine) we put a drill with some kind of bit into the oil pump and spun everything to pump the lifters up. We checked and had oil coming out of all 16 push rods unto the top of the rockers. The drain holes in the heads were all open and cleaned with a brush.
Bob, I hope this helps you to tell me what I should do next. Thank you very much for your time and advice, Bob

[Bob H.]

The engine won't fire until you get compression up which is why I asked about lapping the valves (gritty paste and use a tool similar to a dart w/suction cup to polish the valve and seat). Compression should be 2x what you've got now. Due to cam overlap you shouldn't adjust intake and exhaust valves at the same time, even on TDC. EO: as exhaust valve starts to open adjust the intake valve; IC: as intake valve starts to close adjust exhaust valve. There is a way to adjust multiple valves at one time but I forget the sequence. I'm not convinced (hard to tell across a keyboard) that the oily plugs are the result of bad head gasket and loose head. If it was that bad I would expect water problems too, like rusty plugs. Depending on how the head gasket failed there could have exhaust gases getting in to the cooling water and contributing to the heat problem. You can do a leak down test to find out why compression is so low, but my money's on the valves/seats since it ran before the heads were disassembled.

I bet the block has some caked rust in the passages contributing to the heat problem, assuming the pumps and t-stat are all working now. Heat exchangers are for fresh water cooled and I didn't know what you had. The heat exchanger is a long tube with many small tubes inside that get clogged; you use a long rod to clear the blockage.

[Carolina Polar Bear]

Every 6 teeth changes the timing 30 degrees. So, I must count 6 teeth 6 times and insert the distributer for 180 degrees, Right?

That is incorrect. When referred to as 180 out, that means you have the unit firing on exhaust stroke and not compression stroke. The remedy for this is to loosen the distributor and lift it enough to disengage the distributor drive gear from the cam and turn the crank shaft a full revolution or 360 degrees, realigning the timing mark to TDC and then re-insert the distributor to engage the drive gear back to the cam.

I would also pay attention to the valve adjustment to make sure they are adjusted correctly. We did a small block Chevy in a boat not too long ago using the repair manual and following the manuals direction and had the valves so tight that it wouldn't fire because the valves were never fully closed and it wasn't making compression.

Hope this helps.
CPB

[hippie]

Bob, The way you describe adjusting the valves is the way I did it the last time. I did the "odd" bank and then the "even" bank and tightened 3/4 of a turn. Question- Can I now just back off the nut say a 1/2 turn on all 16 rockers to loosen the valves? I'm talking as the valves sit now?
CPB- Thanks for the explanation on the 360 deg. setting. I wondered if I could do it that way or stay with the shop manuel. As it was, I lost count on the 6 teeth times 6. (leave it to a manuel to mess a person up). I'll work on that.
Thank you both again, Bob

[Bob H.]

Hippie, you can back off the nuts 1/4 turn for a total of 1/2 turn with no problem. Some older 350's set the preload to 3/4 turn. The extra 1/4 turn from 1/2 to 3/4 should not affect compression; especially on a cold engine. One of the other mechanics already loosened the valves if you're worried about them not closing. An engine with compression in the 70's isn't going to start.

[Lone Ranger]

Another possibility is that the outer ring on the Balancer has spun..IF this has happened when you bring it up on TDC....it really is not....So when you drop the Distributor in,its not right! BUt ,you say it only has 75 lbs. compression or so.....Like Bob said.....That is a problem!! I think the valves are too tight,if you never messed with the Timing gears. [Mike]

[king salmon]

Bob,
How about have someone crank the ignition while you slowly turn the distributor and see if you can get a pop.
My mechanic came out to my boat and he didn't bother with any timing belt but he checked the wires for proper order and then rotated the distributor until
the engine started. Where is your boat? My mechanic may be able to get it started. He did it for my boat that other mechanics couldn't. I am using that boat now for fishing.

Gary

[Carolina Polar Bear]

Bob,
I am in Portsmouth, VA and would be glad to try and help you if you are in this area. Let me know if that is feasible.
CPB

[hippie]

OK, I found out that we did not take the timing chain cover off nor mess with the sprockets, but as such, how do we know the chain did not jump a couple of teeth? Mike, I would not have thought about the balancer ring spinning around but that would definitely cause problems that I will check out. Mike and Bob, I'll loosen the valves but I don't know if I'll pick up any compression. What else do either of you suggest I do to get the compression up to where it belongs? CPB, I reside in southern Pa but the boat stays in Baltimore, in Edgemere, near Sparrows Point. I can't ask you to drive that far but I really do appreciate the offer. Gary, we tried turning the dist. every which way but no help. Something is messed up in the timimg some where. But your mechanic, if you can post his name and number I'll call him. I already called 4 mechanics in the Balt. area and none returned my calls, so I guess they don't need any of my money! Anyway, weather permitting, I hope to get to the boat this Fri. and do the valves, check the balancer ring and put the dist. in correctly. I wish there was a way to get my compression back up though, Thank you all again and I'll post my results, Bob

[Bob H.]

You can't check the timing without pulling the cover; the single roller chain is probably due for replacement anyway since it's 10 years old. I wouldn't expect the balancer ring to be a problem on a marine engine since the only ones I know of won't spin - they're glued on and fall off. If you loosen the valves to 1/2 turn (after push rod is snug) and the valves are too tight there's a problem with the lifter(s). My money is still on lapping the valves to bring back compression - squirt some oil in a cylinder and see if compression comes up to eliminate the rings as the problem. Again, unlikely since the problem started with head removal and disassembly. All lifters being bad at the same time is highly improbable. Bob, I'm in Essex and can meet you at the boat one day if you want. Office 410-682-3103 (6am-3pm); Cell 443-834-3636. Hope you figure it out fast; I'm getting my cervical spine fused soon and will be offline for a while - I just "winterized" my boat....again.

[the boat itch]

HIppie I had a 1987 mer 260 v8 in my larson if you can't seem to get things to work call me at 804-683-8977 and I'll meet you and take a turn, as im a hands on guy Ived had a problem like this before myself, but im not going to guess at it, chris

[Lone Ranger]

"I wouldn't expect the balancer ring to be a problem on a marine engine since the only ones I know of won't spin" Bob,Hate to bust your bubble....I have seen it on Marine Engines...There isn't any difference between the Balancers on a Standard Boat Engine and a Car Engine.

[Bob H.]

LR, the only one's I've messed with had glued on strips. Since my 350 experience is with race engines (remember, I got 3 dodges) the balancer is one of the first things that get tossed for a good ATI dampner. Doesn't matter, without compression it ain't gonna start.

[Carolina Polar Bear]

Bob,
If I was closer I would try to help you out. I agree with some of the other responders, it seems that the valves may be adjusted too tight and you are not getting compression as a result. Don't know how far you went into the heads but if they were disassembled and the valves were reinstalled random, you probably need to have them lapped in. I would try to adjust everything loose to the point that I could get compression and once that was achieved rework the timing set up and adjustment. You may have to pull the timing cover to see if there is a problem with the chain and / sprockets and if wear is evident, a replacement set of sprockets and chain would be in order.
I will follow your progress and allow some of the folks on this forum that are more knowledgableand closer assist you . Good luck to you and hope you find something very simple at the root cause of the issue.
CPB

[BUDC]

Bob,
If I was closer I would try to help you out. I agree with some of the other responders, it seems that the valves may be adjusted too tight and you are not getting compression as a result. Don't know how far you went into the heads but if they were disassembled and the valves were reinstalled random, you probably need to have them lapped in. I would try to adjust everything loose to the point that I could get compression and once that was achieved rework the timing set up and adjustment. You may have to pull the timing cover to see if there is a problem with the chain and / sprockets and if wear is evident, a replacement set of sprockets and chain would be in order.
I will follow your progress and allow some of the folks on this forum that are more knowledgableand closer assist you . Good luck to you and hope you find something very simple at the root cause of the issue.
CPB

Just a note. I have a 350 that spun the Harmonic Balancer ring leaving the timing mark off about 16-18 degrees late. Not to argue, but it happened.
I have not seen any mention of turning the crank for TDC on each cyclinder to properly position the valves/cam for presetting then start up for final adjustment. Without it, getting the compression up could be difficult.
Hopefully these long shots will help get Hippie back in the fleet.........Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut. :- }
Good Luck
budc
budc

[Carolina Polar Bear]

Like BUDC suggests, anything is a possibility. Unfortunately, not being involved from the beginning to TS what is most probable, trying to determine root cause is a pretty tall order.
CPB

[Bob H.]

How can chevy screw up something so simple like the timing markings! Glad my Mopars don't have that problem; they just do a lousy job of wire splicing. I've never had a stock 350 so I've been missing all the excitement.

I think we're all assuming he marked the manifold and distributor before disassembly...but you know what happens when you assume. If it had compression it would still start at TDC, just puke and spit a lot as the distributor is rotated.

[BUDC]

Hey Bob, try a Bow-Tie. Maybe you could shake the Mopar addiction
;-
budc

[Lone Ranger]

Just a note. I have a 350 that spun the Harmonic Balancer ring leaving the timing mark off about 16-18 degrees late. Not to argue, but it happened.
I have not seen any mention of turning the crank for TDC on each cyclinder to properly position the valves/cam for presetting then start up for final adjustment. Without it, getting the compression up could be difficult.
Hopefully these long shots will help get Hippie back in the fleet.........Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut. :- }
Good Luck
budc
budc
I sent Him instructions on how to do so.

Bob...The outer ring which has the timing marks on it is held to the inner piece that attaches to the Crank by rubber.Just like a Prop. Hub.Age,oil leaks and such will loosin' the Bond and the Outer Ring will rotate,placing the Timing marks in the wrong place.The old 305's were famous for it.

[Bob H.]

Hey Bob, try a Bow-Tie. Maybe you could shake the Mopar addiction
;-
budc

Been there, ran a 355 in a chopped top 55 (10.20's) at Capitol & Cecil for many years and then 468 (7.40's) in an S&W dragster. Can't use that stock junk so my only experience is with aftermarket fluid dampers. Never worked on a stock Chevy, only upgraded Chevy's. BTW - Not a Mopar fan, it just happened that I got 3 of them. I get that the stock one's can spin and my Mopars are the same way but I haven't spun one yet and I thrash my 5.2L pretty good. Spun or not it won't help the 75# of compression. You can time it by ear (although you won't have any crank dampening) but can't blow in it to raise compression.

[BUDC]

You are far moere experienced than I. I've had 2 Chrysler products, both were rather durable and trouble free for many miles. Most of my vehicles have been GM and luckily without major problems with as much as 280k miles.
Spun dampers are uncommon which shows my luck to get one. I think we are spot-on with the vavle timing causing low compression. Hopefully someone can get a grip on it and save Hippie a bunch of bucks.
Have a great day!!
budc

[Lone Ranger]

Been there, ran a 355 in a chopped top 55 (10.20's) at Capitol & Cecil for many years and then 468 (7.40's) in an S&W dragster. Can't use that stock junk so my only experience is with aftermarket fluid dampers. Never worked on a stock Chevy, only upgraded Chevy's. BTW - Not a Mopar fan, it just happened that I got 3 of them. I get that the stock one's can spin and my Mopars are the same way but I haven't spun one yet and I thrash my 5.2L pretty good. Spun or not it won't help the 75# of compression. You can time it by ear (although you won't have any crank dampening) but can't blow in it to raise compression.

If that ring is spun and He is bringin' it to TDC...By the Timing Marks And then adjusting the Valves....,...Valve and Piston relation are all wrong....Valves don't stay closed long enough to build compression. This COULD be the problem....NOT sayin' it is.But if it ran before and only Head Gaskets have been put on.....Its GOT to run again.

[Lone Ranger]

Hippie,Sent ya' a B.Mail.Have that info. for you.Can't help ya' Friday,I have to work.......MAY be able to help ya' Sat. or Sunday.Give me a call or send me youe number. [443-904-0917] Mike

[MIKE]

I'm not a true mechanic but I did't read anything about lifters being primed, just a thought.That may change compression. Hate to hear bout a chevy broke

[Lone Ranger]

Bob [Hippie]...Tried calling your Cell....Seems to be your Office #??? Call me asap. [Mike]

[tion010]

check all fuses. all ground wires,
main fuse

[ryanmatt]

Reading through all these posts has me wondering did you by any chance try a second compression tester i cant think of anything that would cause low compression on all cylinders like you have described a broken valve spring or bad rings would affect only that cylinder . Older motors wont have factory compression specs. anymore but they should be close to equal and 10lbs or so below new readings. sounds as if yours are equal just reading low. At one time GM used to coat their factory cam gear teeth with fiber to help control noise when this coating wore off it left enough slack in the chain to jump timing this could very easily have happened if while trying to start, the motor backfired. There has been alot of conversion on here about dist. and chain timing..............To make things a little easier to understand there are two timing functions going on in your motor the frst is valve timing this is controled by your timing chain this chains only function is to rotate your camshaft to open and close intake and exhaust valves in sequence with a particular cylinder. The second is distributor timing the dist when properly set will distribute a spark to the cylinder that is at TDC on the compression stroke if either of these two are out of sync with the other motor wont run...........................

[hippie]

Up date- We checked the timing (distributer placement) and valve adjustment and both were on the money. The spark is a little light at the plugs, but doable. We also checked the timing chain for "stretch" but none was evident.

Now, when we checked the compression (from another compression tester), #2 cylinder had 30 lbs. Number 1 cylinder had 40 lbs. and #4 cylinder had 40 lbs. Obviously that is way low! But what is causing it? On Thurs. or Fri. I hope to go to the boat and pump air into the cylinders and try to find out where the compressed fuel/air is leaking from. If it's the valves, then a valve job is immenent. I will continue to keep everyone posted and Thank you for all your help and advice. Please continue to do so, Bob

[ryanmatt]

when you get your compression readings are you spinning the engine over with the starter or turning the crank with a wrench ? The readings will be low if done by hand because of normal leakage at the rings.

[Bob H.]

I suspect you mixed up the valves when you took the heads apart which is why I suggested a leakdown test earlier. It's easy to mess up if your garage is as disorganized as mine. The leakdown test will find the leak, but since you didn't touch anything in the block the valves are the likely culprit.

[hippie]

We spun the engine by the starter, but, the mechanic said he thought it should have spun alot faster. The batteries were new last summer and I recharged both a month ago. Bob H.- I really hope it is only the valves. We are set for this leak down test on Thurs. morning. If it appears to be valves I'll pull both heads off and drop them at the machine shop on Fri. Does anyone know, good or bad, about Joe Mitchells' shop in Darlington, Md. Thank you, Bob

[Bob H.]

A lot of things could contribute to the engine turning over slow. A month isn't too bad for sitting but they should be left on a float charger. The cylinders are dry too. Connections, especially at the starter may be dirty too. Don't know anything about shops in Darlington.

[BUDC]

This is a long, long, LONG shot,
Since it has been some time since the overhaul, could it be that what ever assembly lube you used on valve stems or lifters has gotten gummy and holding them from returning or following the cam?
I'm still convinced the compression shortage is a valve problem - timing, sticking or too tight. Until you get comp up, the bow tie ain't gonna run!
I've never heard of this happening, but SOMETHING is causing low compression. Maybe your the lucky winner of a "Sticky Lube" award !!
:- [
budc
6-8-10
A month just isn't long enough -- I'm with Polar Bear below. Back off on the valves, check comp. I had the pre-setting order for valves --- now to find it again.
budc

[Carolina Polar Bear]

My money is on the valves being adjusted too tight....already went thriough this on my nephews boat where we had the valves adjusted IAW the manual and the manual was WRONG. To check , back intake and exhaust off until sloppy loose on one cylinder and read wet compression in that cylinder. If you have good compression there I would research another source for adjusting the valves properly. Just My opinion. Good Luck!
CPB

[Lone Ranger]

My money is on the valves being adjusted too tight....already went thriough this on my nephews boat where we had the valves adjusted IAW the manual and the manual was WRONG. To check , back intake and exhaust off until sloppy loose on one cylinder and read wet compression in that cylinder. If you have good compression there I would research another source for adjusting the valves properly. Just My opinion. Good Luck!
CPB

They are NOT too tight..

[Carolina Polar Bear]

If the valve adjustment allows them to fully close and it will not make compression, then the valves must be opening on the compression stroke (crank and cam relationship determines valve timing, and this must be out of whack) or the engine doesn't have a head gasket or piston rings.
My point is that the compression gauge should register the highest amount of compression achieved when the engine is turning over. If it is not building compression because of valves being open during compression stroke, there are only a couple other places to look.
Good Hunting.
CPB

[Lone Ranger]

I do this for a living.[not to be an a$$] I fully understand.I was at the Boat Saturday.The Engine HAD problems Before the Head Gasket install[I did Not do].Running hot,would not go over 1200 rpm's,Loose Head Bolts on one Head as I have been told.A Leak Down test in next as soon as Bob gets the Tools together and this will tell the story on the compression lose.

[Carolina Polar Bear]

Lone Ranger I'll be like Tonto with an ear to the ground. Been following this for weeks and just can't imagine WTF is wrong. Keep us posted and thanks for being patient with all of the inquiring minds..
CPB

[Lone Ranger]

Lone Ranger I'll be like Tonto with an ear to the ground. Been following this for weeks and just can't imagine WTF is wrong. Keep us posted and thanks for being patient with all of the inquiring minds..
CPB

Certainly will.One problem is...Bob lives in PA. Boat is in the Northpoint,Md. area..I'm 20 miles or so away and have to Work 5-6 days a week.Will get this squared away!

[hippie]

OK, here is the update. I was at the boat today and we checked the compression issue. Most cylinders were low so we shot some oil into each cylinder and they jumped to between 140 and 155 lbs. (20-50 oil). The oil also increased the rpms when cranking the motor over. Then we tried to start it and it actually tried to start! Lone Ranger, thank you, you had the timing on the money. The batteries went low in no time at all and would not spin the engine fast enough for it to start. Then I noticed, when cranking the engine over, that the tachometer was turning backwards. My voltage meter showed 12 volts but when we cranked it over it was dropping to zero volts. Obviously we looked for a short and I noticed the 4 wires at the alternator were off (not connected to the alternator) and the red wire and purple wire was touching the metal outside of the alternator. I assume that is where the short was. So we are to meet Sun. and do further investigative work on the 12 volt electric system. Now a short and/or reverse polarity will cause the batteries to go dead in short fashion and will cause the spark to be light at the plug, both of which we had. Oh, also, my friend did not take the valves out of the heads when they were off and all appeared to be good as far as leakage from the head/valve area. Lone Ranger assisted me last Sat. and does really know his stuff! All of his advice was right on the money. Thank you everyone and as always if you have any advice please post it. Thank you again, Bob

[Bob H.]

Sounds like you're making progress. After a few thermal cycles the rings will expand and compression will come back....somewhat. I don't remember how we got done the valve path but without re-reading I assume that somewhere I was led to believe the heads were disassembled.

[MIKE]

Good job Lone Ranger sound like alt wires get tied in and she's gonna do it.Now get some fresh gas for the beast and let the rpm's fly

[hippie]

Here is where we are with this engine... We worked all day today in the heat. We got the wires straightened out at the alternator and that cleared the reverse polarity. Now everything appears to be go! We crank it over but no attempt to start. We spray eyther down the carb and still not even a pop. We pulled two plugs, #5 and #6 and checked the compression. Not good, it read 60-65 lbs so we shot some oil into the cylinders and both doubled the compression! Also, when cranking the engine the voltmeter goes from 13 to the bottom peg. This occurs only when cranking.

The bottom line- Should I buy a rebuilt short block since the piston rings are probably bad?

Thank you, Bob

[rj]

Bob
with only 50-60 lbs of compression on the cylinders, your motor is not going to start, it is not even going to pop,, we just went through this last year with a "rebuilt" engine ( 350 Chevrolet) that was installed in my sons boat by a local well known dealer, after 50 hrs of running time it refused to start,, we checked everything we could, just as you have, but did not check the compression since it had just been "rebuilt" by a supposedly reputable dealer & it should have been fine since it had less than 50 hrs on it . it just refused to start.. after several days of checking & rechecking we finally had a mechanic friend look at it & he repeated all the steps that we had & was baffled, so he made us check the compression..we found 60 lbs on the cylinders just as you did. we stopped checking after 4 different cylinders read that low.
the local dealer refused to repair the motor,, (we were very disapointed & unhappy with the dealer at the time, but that turned out to be for the best for us as we would have just been _______ again) .

he ended up purchasing a NEW (not rebuilt) GM Base Marine engine from a dealer and installing it in the boat himself.
the price for the New engine was only slightly more than a "rebuilt" engine,

we purchased from a company that specialized in New Base Marine engines, (they also helped us identify the "rebuilt" engine that we had as not a rebuild but one that had been "frankensteined " together with many mismatched & wrong parts)

after installing the New engine last year it has run flawlesly

Bottom line;
Forget the rebuild,,buy New, it is not that much more & replace the risers & manifolds at the same time & you will have years of trouble free service

Also Lone Ranger is the Man , when it comes to your GM products, his advice is always right on.

[Bob H.]

Compression is still too low and you still have an electrical problem. Voltage shouldn't drop to zero. Jasper's has short blocks w/warranty or get yours rebuilt. Check with the BBB before dropping any cash. I curious why there wasn't an oil cloud following the boat the last time it ran. Now would be a good time for a 383 stroker engine. Buying a short block is riskier and faster than boring yours 0.030 over and replacing the worn out stuff...but will take a few extra weeks.

[Carolina Polar Bear]

RJ has the right idea, bite the bullet and get a new crate engine from GM. Not that much difference in price but well worth the additionl peace of mind.
CPB

[Capt. Skid]

Sounds from all of the input that a new engine might be in order.
E Basic Marine in North Carolinia, I think, has all 3 , re maned, rebuilt,
and new in crate short and long block and complete engines..Just for the
hell of it, did anyone check the distributor gear on the shaft? The pin
that holds the gear in place could be broken and allowing the gear to
to move around..Ran across this in my engine re-building days when we
could`nt get the engine timed to start..As a matter of fact we found it by accident..
After a bunch of installs, the gear finally fell off in my hand, new gear and pin and
all was well.. Did u use the right head gaskets and torque the heads down in the
right bolt pattern sequence and the right ft. lbs. of torque. If it was me, I would
pull the heads back off, get another set of gaskets, I like seal power, reinstall and ck.
compression again..another way to make sure #1 is at TDC is to insert a rod or pencil
into plug hole and turn crank until the rod or pencil almost falls out of the plug hole.
then aline the rotor to be pointing toward #1 cylinder, and install the dist.
Good Luck!!! If I was closer, I would liked to have taken a WACK at it..

Capt.Skid

[Carolina Polar Bear]

You and me both Capt Skid. I love a challenge but it seems like Lone Ranger is right on with what he has been doing, here's hoping for the best.
CPB

[hippie]

Capt. Skid, I appreciate your advice. We did get the timing on the money but after putting oil in the cylinders and doing a basic leak test it appears as though the problem lies in the piston rings. But yet it did not smoke at all when it was still running! I'm looking at a new block from Michigan Motorz and putting all of my bolt-ons on it since almost all are brand new anyway. Their block is identical to mine clean down to the front adjustable motor mounts. The only problem is my Thunderbolt Ignition drops to 0 volts when cranking. Other than that it should be an easy job switching everything over. If you have any comments or advice be sure and post it. Thanks again, Bob

[Lone Ranger]

Capt. Skid, I appreciate your advice. We did get the timing on the money but after putting oil in the cylinders and doing a basic leak test it appears as though the problem lies in the piston rings. But yet it did not smoke at all when it was still running! I'm looking at a new block from Michigan Motorz and putting all of my bolt-ons on it since almost all are brand new anyway. Their block is identical to mine clean down to the front adjustable motor mounts. The only problem is my Thunderbolt Ignition drops to 0 volts when cranking. Other than that it should be an easy job switching everything over. If you have any comments or advice be sure and post it. Thanks again, Bob

Bob,You are talking Block WITH Cylinder Heads aren't you?

[KB neptune]

I worked as a technician for years and I am sure that Lone Ranger would like to finish what he took over. It can become personal!Sometimes people jump past the basics when diagnosing problems.Its been my experience if you add oil to a cylinder and compression rises it is not a valve issue. This is caused by washed out rings or bad rings.Voltage drop while cranking the engine could be normal under heavy load.Get the engine going first. This would be my approach at this point.
1.remove all plugs and squirt a mix of oil and ATF in ea cylinder.2.hook up a heavy-duty batt. charger (one that has a cranking feature) LR should have access to one .3.crank the engine multiple revolutions to get the oil into the rings with charger on crank feature.4. install plugs (use old set) crank some more...hopefully you should get enough compression for start-up. ....if not starting you may have to pull plugs and put the new ones back in (oil fouled).Good luck.

[hippie]

Mike, Just the man I wanted to talk to! Yes, it is a new block with pistons, heads, valves, timing sprockets/chain,oil pan, circulating pump, valve covers, plugs, and a roller cam. I will need to transfer my alternator, starter/solenoid, coil, distributer, wiring harness, intake manifold & carb, front adjustable motor mounts and fuel pump. This new setup is $600.00 more than a rebuilt with all the same items. The rebuilt has a tappet cam. Another shop in Md. has a new block setup about $350.00 cheaper but he says it will not take a mechanical fuel pump and I don't know if my alternator, starter, etc. will be compatible with the wiring on that block. The only thing that worries me is that Thunderbolt Ignition and what if the module goes bad-that is alot of money! Also that short when cranking. I'll try to post the address if I can figure it out. What do you think? Thanks again, Bob

[hippie]

Mike, this is the link, I hope it works. #5700 BasicpreV.

http://www.michiganmotorz.com/marine-engines-base-marine-engines-c-31_46.html

[Capt. Skid]

Bob, make sure that any long block you get has the right head caskets!!! They
must be stainless steel or will rust through in a few days running in the salt!!
This is a must !! On the voltage drop, try running a separate ground from the starter
to a ( known good ground on the engine or strieght to the batt.) a chevy block is a chevy block
and the starter bolts to the block my have some corrosion and has shorted the ground.
Ran into to this also back in the day. Also shop around and find an alumnium oil pan !!
This is also a must do, An all steel pan will rust out and then cause you to pull the
engine and fix, which usually happens in the worst time..

Capt.Skid

[Lone Ranger]

Bob,Fix the Ignition first! Will talk to ya.At Work right now........

[hippie]

Capt Skid, Those are all great ideas! I was going to order this on this past Monday but decieded to wait to see if any good suggestions would come about, and they did!! Thanks everyone, Bob

PS- Lone Ranger- I'll call you or get a hold of you.

[hippie]

I checked with the company concerning head gaskets and the oil pan. The factory rep. said he has never sold any of the aluminum oil pans ($480.00) and they use Felpro gaskets for everything else. He said he doesn't know where to look to get stainless steel gaskets nor if they are made anymore.
Thank you all, Bob

[hippie]

Mike, you are right! I did some research on the sensor wheel and it should not spin. Most are glued to the rotor now but mine was seperate a few years ago. Thanks, Bob

[Lone Ranger]

Mike, you are right! I did some research on the sensor wheel and it should not spin. Most are glued to the rotor now but mine was seperate a few years ago. Thanks, Bob

Didn't believe me? :peace: Just messin' with ya'.:yes:

[Capt. Skid]

I checked with the company concerning head gaskets and the oil pan. The factory rep. said he has never sold any of the aluminum oil pans ($480.00) and they use Felpro gaskets for everything else. He said he doesn't know where to look to get stainless steel gaskets nor if they are made anymore.
Thank you all, Bob

FelPro gaskets are most of the time stainless, but you gotta have stainless gaskets unless you are freshwater cooled.
Also Check with Doug Russel marine about your long block, almost all new crate engines/long blocks
come with alumn. oilpans..Sounds like the factory rep only sold automotive engines..There is a difference
in marine engines, not just the head gaskets, cranks,cams and berings are harden as well as rod berings.
Marine engines are designed to run for extended periods of time at high rpm`s where auto engines
are set up to operate at lower r`s.. Imagine running your car at 3500 R`s all the time..how fast would you be going??

Capt.Skid

[hippie]

Capt.Skid, how fast would I be going? My guess is 130 to 135 mph. I was going 80 mph on rt #95 and my Ford truck was doing right on 2,100 r's. Kidding aside, I agree with you on that. A marine engine has different cams, heads, valve timing to name a few due to turning higher RPMs when up on plane. Check the site I posted and see what you think. It is # 5700 BasicpreV, the brand new long block. Thanks again, Bob

[Lone Ranger]

Capt.Skid, how fast would I be going? My guess is 130 to 135 mph. I was going 80 mph on rt #95 and my Ford truck was doing right on 2,100 r's. Kidding aside, I agree with you on that. A marine engine has different cams, heads, valve timing to name a few due to turning higher RPMs when up on plane. Check the site I posted and see what you think. It is # 5700 BasicpreV, the brand new long block. Thanks again, Bob

Some do ,Some Don't!!!! You're confusing yourself!

[hippie]

Just an update. I recieved the engine from Detroit last week. I striped my old engine and assembled the parts on the block. I put the block in my boat on Fri. I need to put the wiring harness on and exhaust system. Then set my timing and it should be "go like He** and kick a** time! Any tips or suggestions are always appreciated. Thanx, Bob

[Bob H.]

Sounds like you're moving closer to the big splash. Mine ran in May but spine fusion has me off the water this year - hope the ole engine starts up next spring.

[hippie]

Bob H. Spine fusion is some major surgery. I came down with Type2 Diabetes a few yrs. ago and starting this summer I can't work in the heat like when I was a kid or even 40 yrs. ago. I drive to the boat and work a few hours then come home. This getting old is not for the weak!
Hope you recover soon, Bob

[Grady23]

Before you fire up the new engine, take a lLOONG straight blade screwdriver and cut the handle off. Place the shaft in a drill and use it to spin the oil pump and pre-fill the oil system on the engine. This insures that oil has been pumped up into the lifters, and all bearings. I usually do this with the valve covers off so I can see oil coming out of the push-rod ends. That is the highest point in the engine for circulation. When it gets there, you know it is COMPLETELY pushed throughout the entire engine. You will need to remove the distributor to do this and then re-adjust the engine timing when you put it back. You would need to adjust the timing anyway. NEVER trust what they did when assembling the engine. I know this is additional work, but IT"S work the time. Just DO NOT turn over the engine with the distributor removed or you'll need to go back and completely re-time it.

[hippie]

Grady23, I'm glad you said something, I wanted to post on that. How fast and how long do I turn the oil pump? I can pull the valve covers off and watch till I see the oil coming out the pushrods but about how long should it take? I remember in the fall when we did it to my old block and the lifters did not seem to want to pump up. As I recall we fussed for like 20 minutes till they were pumped up and we saw oil at the pushrods. It seems awfull long to me. Thank you, Bob

[Bob H.]

Oil pressure should pump up in 20-30 seconds even on the driest of engines with a good oil pump and clean pickup. You should hear a change in the drill motor sound as oil pressure builds. You can run the pump as fast and as long as you want. If you're concerned about lack of oil in the top end you can pull a valve cover and watch but it usually isn't necessary. Hope your oil returns in the heads are big enough to handle the oil volume if it's a high volume pump without making a mess on the exhaust pipes.

[hippie]

It is a brand new pump never used in a motor that runs. It is not a high output pump. I do want to ask about the oil I have to put in the cylinders. Which is best, to put a fair amount of 20-50 in each cylinder by oil can or spray fogging oil in each cylinder. This would be prior to start up. I put oil on the valve guides prior to installing the intake manifold.
Also today I recieved the Carter electric fuel pump from Michigan Motorz. I can't complain because they sent it free to me. It came with a 24 " section of hose with fittings attached. Also was a section of shrink tape and other brass fittings. And of course a fuel pressure switch (for safety). The instructions are for an electric fuel pump setup (3 prong to a two prong change) but mine had a manuel pump, henceforth, no wiring for this setup. I have searched the web for 2 days to see how I install this (the wiring for the most part). Can you please advise me as to what wires go where and how to install this safety switch thing. Thank you, Bob

[Bob H.]

The cylinders should already have an oil film from assembly. Once you get the oil pump primed you can crank the engine a few seconds without the ignition firing. Once everything is lubed connect the ignition. It's no different than an engine that's beens sitting.

I would stick with a mechanical pump. They're cheap, reliable and much easier to get if you need one fast.

Fuel pump: There are several web sites with how-to for electric pump hook up and relays. Mr Gasket usually has instructions available. Without knowing the details of what you got it's hard to say how to hook it up other than stock up on 10ga wire. Typically the pump runs off a relay and the switch creates a latching circuit for the relay to keep the pump running. Is the pump rated for marine use? You're increasing the complexity of the fuel system and adding more parts that can fail.

[hippie]

Bob, I know. When I ordered this long block I asked if takes a manuel fuel pump because the one I have is brand new, never run. The man says yes and when I recieved the block everything is fine. Well, when I got to the fuel pump and removed it from my old block and tried to put it on the new block guess what! The block is set up for a manuel pump, however, the block has no hole for the stainless rod which goes from the fuel pump to the cam! It pissed me off at first but I calmed down and called Michigan Motorz who apologized repeatedly. I said I had switched everything over except for the fuel pump so instead of me taking everything off and shipping the block back to them we came to an agreement. They sent me a new pump (electric) with hoses, fittings, wires, and some sort of pressure switch for free. (a Carter that sells the kit for $195.00) and it is marked for marine service. Now, after 3 days of searching the internet for a wiring diagram on this, I am again starting to get a little hot. Every site claims to have all this info on installation yet none do. I just emailed Michigan Motorz about providing me with a little info on mounting this pump and they emailed me back within 5 minutes saying they will phone me today and "talk me through" the wiring, etc. You pay big money for this stuff that is supposed to be brand new and you want it right! I'll keep you all posted, Bob

[hippie]

Here is a picture of my new engine block. You guys can see it's made for a manual fuel pump but there is no hole for the stainless steel rod, that goes in against the cam. Nor is the small oil return hole at the bottom. My new electric fuel pump does not bolt up at this location. What should I do?

[Bob H.]

Personally I send the block back. If they can't get the little things right it only goes downhill from there. You can get block off plates at many auto stores or make one yourself in a few minutes. Also, the pump I think you received (you didn't give us any p/n to work with) puts out too much pressure, 5.7psi. Don't know what carb you got but the pressure probably needs to be in the 3-4psi range.

That aside, try this link for connections:

http://www.mr-gasket.com/pdf/110_140.pdf

Mr Gasket has a lot of information on the web, whereas Carter won't even give you phone number for tech support.