Tell Big Chicken to go Pluck Themselves

[BILL H]

Gov. Martin O'Malley wants to hear from you: What's it going to take to clean up the Bay? This summer, as Maryland drafts a comprehensive plan to restore the Chesapeake Bay, the Department of the Environment is holding a series of public forums to hear what you think should be included.
Our #1 priority couldn't be simpler: Make factory farms clean up their act, and hold Big Chicken accountable for their pollution. This is our chance to tell the governor's staff directly.
RSVP to Maryland's Chesapeake Bay public forum this Thursday evening in Baltimore. (http://www.environmentmaryland.org/action/clean-water/our-chance?id4=ES)
After decades of let-downs, this summer is truly an unprecedented opportunity to turn things around for the Bay. The Environmental Protection Agency is finally exerting its authority to hold states accountable to annual pollution reductions with actual consequences for failure.
If this is going to work, states need to put the right pieces into their clean-up plans, and the EPA needs to take the states to task when they fall short.
If Maryland's plan is once again soft on factory farms, it will already have failed. Gov. O'Malley should require clean-up practices on the farms and hold Perdue, Tyson, and the other big chicken companies accountable for pollution created by their animals.
You can tell Gov. O'Malley's staff directly. Click here to RSVP to this Thursday evening's meeting:
http://www.environmentmaryland.org/action/clean-water/our-chance?id4=ES

[wino]

How about the raw sewage Baltimore dumps into the bay daily?

[BILL H]

Wino,
There is a flush tax to assist with the sewage problem. There are regulations and limits in place (even if they are not always followed or met).

Perdue is intimately engaged in all processes involving its suppliers, except for the waste at the end of the pipeline. Farmers have guidelines and best practices, but they must produce protein at the lowest possible cost. Perdue needs to take responsibility for the waste produced by their suppliers.

[uncljohn]

yeah I think these are separate issues (sewage vs. farm waste) and should be handled as such. Solving either problmem would be a great benefit to the bay. But lets look at the biggest, easiest (single-source) solution first- Perdue.

[bighuka]

I would propose two things. (three actually)

1) a complete checkup and total upgrade on all sewage treatment plants. So many of these are located so close to all parts of the bay. I can only speak about the Magothy, but in the last 5 yrs there have been 2 MASSIVE spills of raw, untreated sewage directly into the river. The first one was about five years ago and I think it was about 100,000 gallons straight into the waters near Deep Creek. Then, just a few weeks ago, 150,000 gallons spilled right into the headwaters of the Magothy in Cypress Creek. UNREAL. The fact that this continues to happen is absolutely ridiculous, and only shows what we have to look forward to in the future as more and more sewage builds up. This is 300,000 gallons of sewage in less than a decade. It doesn't get any filthier than that. And we scratch our heads and wonder why things are so f'd up?

2) completely ban the use of all lawn applicants (weed killers, etc). Although the effects are not as clear as some of the other problems, there is no doubt that these substances cause major problems. To live anywhere near the water and apply these to your lawn is completely ignorant or selfish, but equally the problem are people who live miles from the water and use them as well. Regardless of how far away the river or bay is from the point of use, the stuff always will find its way into the water, poisoning everything in its path.

3) The third thing I would do is stiffen the laws on animal waste. Most people have no idea just how bad dog waste, etc is for the water. If you choose to have a dog, you must clean up after it at all times. The natural thought for people is "how is my one dog going to affect anything" but the bottom line is that multiplied by every dog in the community it definitely adds up. Stiffen fines for inproper waste disposal (harsh fines, perhaps even the death penalty for the dog) and this problem will be solved. If anyone questions whether this really has any effect on water quality, take a sip of water a few miles downstream of a cow pasture in even the most remote places in the country and see what happens.....

These are some things that would improve the quality of the bay (ps--the dog comment was a joke, don't want to upset the liberals..)

[BILL H]

You didn't upset me.
But if you don't want to put limits on Big Chicken, you should at least follow the link provided in the OP and make your points for the Governor.

[Tombass123]

Amen on banning lawn care chemicals... is the price of a nice lawn worth dead zones and poor water quality?
At least a tax on lawn fertilizer to help limit its use...

[hackeyfly]

I would propose two things. (three actually)

1) a complete checkup and total upgrade on all sewage treatment plants. So many of these are located so close to all parts of the bay. I can only speak about the Magothy, but in the last 5 yrs there have been 2 MASSIVE spills of raw, untreated sewage directly into the river. The first one was about five years ago and I think it was about 100,000 gallons straight into the waters near Deep Creek. Then, just a few weeks ago, 150,000 gallons spilled right into the headwaters of the Magothy in Cypress Creek. UNREAL. The fact that this continues to happen is absolutely ridiculous, and only shows what we have to look forward to in the future as more and more sewage builds up. This is 300,000 gallons of sewage in less than a decade. It doesn't get any filthier than that. And we scratch our heads and wonder why things are so f'd up?

2) completely ban the use of all lawn applicants (weed killers, etc). Although the effects are not as clear as some of the other problems, there is no doubt that these substances cause major problems. To live anywhere near the water and apply these to your lawn is completely ignorant or selfish, but equally the problem are people who live miles from the water and use them as well. Regardless of how far away the river or bay is from the point of use, the stuff always will find its way into the water, poisoning everything in its path.

3) The third thing I would do is stiffen the laws on animal waste. Most people have no idea just how bad dog waste, etc is for the water. If you choose to have a dog, you must clean up after it at all times. The natural thought for people is "how is my one dog going to affect anything" but the bottom line is that multiplied by every dog in the community it definitely adds up. Stiffen fines for inproper waste disposal (harsh fines, perhaps even the death penalty for the dog) and this problem will be solved. If anyone questions whether this really has any effect on water quality, take a sip of water a few miles downstream of a cow pasture in even the most remote places in the country and see what happens.....

These are some things that would improve the quality of the bay (ps--the dog comment was a joke, don't want to upset the liberals..)
Y'all don't understand liberals. I'm told I'm a liberal, and I agree with your comment 100%. Liberal and responsible aren't mutually exclusive.
Pat in Joppa

[BILL H]

I will not run over this flat cat any more after this.

According to Baystat, the leading source of nitrogen, phosphorus, and sediment pollution in the overall Chesapeake Bay is from agriculture. The best that WTPs can do is second place in N and third place in P. It's not even on the radar for sediment.

There are only a few subareas of the Bay watershed where this is not the case. STPs lead in N and P in the Patapsco/Back River and in N in the Middle Potomac, plus they run a strong second in P for the Lower Western Shore and Patuxent River.

In almost every other subarea, either agriculture (21) or stormwater runoff (9) is the leading cause. WTPs generally show up in 3rd place for N & P, but are absent from sediment where they don't win, place, or show (which is not unexpected).

If you are on the Eastern Shore or most of the Western Shore, it is agriculture, agriculture, agriculture. The Lower Western Shore and Patuxent River are the exceptions where stormwater runoff is the biggie in N & P.

If you are on the Eastern Shore, Big Chicken is a major contributor to the problem.

I have nothing against the chicken growers. Big Chicken needs to pay them a fair price for their product (a price that includes the environmental protection costs), and we need to accept the fact that we will need to pay a bit more for those boneless breasts at the market. And the only way Big Chicken will pay that price, is if they are made responsible for the pollution caused by their suppliers.

You have a chance to make your voice be heard. Use it or lose it.

[benthere]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/poisonedwaters/view/

[goose70]

I think that Bighuka's comments are mostly on target with respect to the Magothy and Severn, which along with the South are somewhat unique in the Bay watershed.

In the Severn and Magothy watersheds, stormwater laced with lawn fertilizer and pet waste is a significant contributor. In the Magothy, sewage spills have also been significant, but flush fee money is now being used for an upcoming improvement to the Broadneck wastewater treatment facility. A more difficult problem concerns the heavy concentration of septic systems (many failing, but all are polluting to some significant degree) in parts of the Severn and Magothy. No easy fix exists for this expensive problem.

[hackeyfly]

If any of you folks live in a neighborhood with a storm water management pond or other facility, or work somewhere with a stormwater management facility, and you want to contribute to bay cleanup, look into the maintenance of that facility. Most counties require periodic maintenance and inspections, are they getting done? Typically the H.O.A. assumes responsibility for the stormwater facilities after the developers bond expires, or in the case of a business, the property owner assumes responsibility. But- be advised, if the system is not working properly, or needs cleaning, or repair, it could cost some $$$. Are we willing to assume the financial responsibility for these systems, or will we ignore them until the county/state/township forces us to at the point of a violation letter? That is the question.
Pat in Joppa
Edit- in the interest of full disclosure, I work for a storm water design, maintenance and construction firm. Until recently I worked for an engineering firm specializing in land development. I feel much less guilty about how I earn my living these days.

[LY2000]

Bill H, thank you.

Guys, Perdue's chicken waste is the worst polluter in the bay and probably easiest thing to fix. We can all afford chicken nuggets and soybeans that cost 10 cents more. I can't find the chart that showed where all this stuff is coming from but it was pretty obvious the biggest polluters were not lawns, sewers or dog chit (although these can be cleaned up too, just not as easily).

[Tombass123]

Where would the hull away the chicken $hit? Would it have to be trucked away from the Eastern Shore or could it be burned? (too dirty? fuel)
Just curious

[hackeyfly]

If nothing else, the rules regarding containment of on-site storage of manure could be enforced. Still has to go somewhere, but at least it will be contained until shipment.
Pat in Joppa

[BILL H]

I am sure that if Big Chicken were responsible for the waste (and its impacts), they would come up with some way to deal with it. But as long as they are not responsible, there is little incentive to do anything. Right now, the burden (best management practices, guidelines, and other toothless measures) fall on the chicken grower, who is getting bottom dollar for the protein they produce because we just love our cheap chicken.

[Scott_nra]

So, dog poo is part of the bay's problem? Really?! Isn't this the same bay dinosaurs pooped in and around? I'm having a hard time with that one. I pick up after my dog but only because I don't want to step in it or driver over it with my lawnmower. I'm with you on sewage plant dumps and large farms and to some extent on lawn chemicals but think some of you guys get a little too carried way with yourselves and turn many of the rest of us off. Ban Fertilizer for yards and make it mandatory to pick up dog poo! Gimme a break. We got to pick up after cows too I guess. Horses? So what happens with all the plastic poo bags in the land fills? Where does all this crap stop? (Pun intended) Not trying to be mean or anything, just saying.

[BILL H]

Scott_nra,

Aside from the fact that the dinosaurs had died out maybe a hundred million years before the formation of the Bay 35 million years ago, there are some other flaws in your logic.

"The presence of pet waste in stormwater runoff has a number of implications for urban stream water quality with perhaps the greatest impact from fecal bacteria (for more information see Microbes in Urban Watersheds: Concentrations, Sources and Pathways (http://www.stormwatercenter.net/Practice/17-Microbes%20in%20Urban%20Watersheds.pdf), Article 17 (http://www.stormwatercenter.net/Practice/17-Microbes%20in%20Urban%20Watersheds.pdf) in The Practice of Watershed Protection). According to recent research, non-human waste represents a significant source of bacterial contamination in urban watersheds. Genetic studies by Alderiso et al. (1996) and Trial et al. (1993) both concluded that 95 percent of the fecal coliform found in urban stormwater was of non-human origin. Bacterial source tracking studies in a watershed in the Seattle, Washington area also found that nearly 20% of the bacteria isolates that could be matched with host animals were matched with dogs. This bacteria can pose health risks to humans and other animals, and result in the spread of disease. It has been estimated that for watersheds of up to twenty-square miles draining to small coastal bays, two to three days of droppings from a population of about 100 dogs would contribute enough bacteria and nutrients to temporarily close a bay to swimming and shellfishing (US EPA, 1993).
Pet waste can also be a factor in eutrophication of lakes. The release of nutrients from the decay of pet waste promotes weed and algae growth, limiting light penetration and the growth of aquatic vegetation. This in turn can reduce oxygen levels in the water, affecting fish and other aquatic organisms.
Animal waste collection programs use awareness and education, signs, and pet waste control ordinances to alert residents to the proper disposal techniques for pet droppings. In some parts of the country, the concept of parks or portions of parks established specifically for urban dog owners has gained in popularity. With provisions for proper disposal of dog feces and siting and design to address stormwater runoff, these parks may represent another option for protecting local water quality."


I'm glad you pick up your dog's droppings, whatever your reasons. It does provide a benefit to society at large, regardless of what you think.

Storm-water runoff is a top source of both nitrogen and phosphorus in the Lower Western Shore and Patuxent River drainages. Sure, a lot of it comes from our green lawns, but our "best friends" are making their contributions of bacteria also.

You don't have to ban lawn fertilizer. Just price it so it accounts for the environmental impact.

I do somewhat agree with your comment on cow dung. There should be enforceable limits on discharges from farms, not just guidelines and BMTs.

[Scott_nra]

"...Nearly 20%..." I'm no math wizzard but doesn't that mean OVER 80% is some other critter poo? Who is going to pick up after the deer and squirrels and fuzzy bunnies? That sentance could just as eaily been written like this..." Seattle, Washington area also found that less than 20% of the bacteria isolates that could be matched with host animals were matched with dogs" It depends on the agenda at hand. Should we get rid of all bridges and overpasses that go over a stream, river or even the bay since birds sit on them and drop waste directly into the water untreated?

I don't want anyone to get me wrong, I am for doing what we can and certainly increasing awarness of our responsibilities of good stewardship. I'm not however for effecting market prices or taxing to try to meet some "end". That is too slipery a slope for me. Like I said, I'm with you all on spreading the word and not overuing lawn stuff, and even getting meat farms to capture run-off and treat it especially near the waterways, but no way I'm support anything that effects price or raises a tax. Who determines the price or tax then? Surely it will be some granola munching tree hugging hippy with a dirt yard who composts his own poo. No thanks. Where does the money go? Nothing the government does works as well as it is intended excpt the military. And that's only when DC leaves them alone to do their job.

[BILL H]

We are all so piously eco-conscious until we have to pay a price for it. Then all of a sudden our tune begins to change. What do you think will happen to the price of chicken when the "meat farms" have to do something about their runoff? Oh, that's right, they are such friends of the "little man" (sorry BP), that they will gladly absorb the cost and not pass it along to their customers. No matter how much we want it, there is no free lunch (even cheap chicken has its price).

" Granola munching tree hugging hippy with a dirt yard who composts his own poo"? Come on, the late Bill Buckley Jr. will be turning over in his grave if his minions can't come up with a more original metaphor than that old tired trope.

[BILL H]

Scott-NRA says that "there is nothing the government does well except the military.". I wish you would say that to the face of my friends at FBI, DOJ, Secret Service, ATF, CIA, US Marshals, DEA, National Park Service, US State Dept... etc. etc. That statement is highly insulting.
Scott's been nipping at the kool-aid again.
Well, as much fun as this has been, I think I'll go to the beach for a couple of days and have nothing to do with Big Chicken. Maybe some chicken on the grill, but I guess I will have to find some free-range ones, that were fed only organic food by some Birkenstock-wearing hippy with a composting toilet". Well, maybe at least some not from Perdue or Tyson. Hell, maybe I'll just stick to the steaks. Even we liberals like red meat in spite of what some folks think.

[CSLUG]

I don't know much about chicken farming but I do live in the middle of harford county dairy country and here are just a few observations.

You don't raise milking cows or any quantity of cows without a flowing stream.

Cows will spend their entire day standing in the stream drinking peeing and pooping.

Manure ponds need to be drained and spread on fields which is usually done before severe weather enhancing runoff.

I have lived here 20+ years and can count the number of days Sturrip run has run clear.

[Scott_nra]

You know what Jim, I stand corrected! Those agencies to a damn good job even though the current administration won't help them one bit. So, please add "various law enforcement agenies" to my post. :-) Now ATF, I'm not so sure of. Seems like witch hunt agency to me more than anything that does the bidding of the current administration, insulting or not. That would be a whole other post and subject.

[Thoroughbred]

Amen on banning lawn care chemicals... is the price of a nice lawn worth dead zones and poor water quality?
At least a tax on lawn fertilizer to help limit its use...

I also see this as a HUGE issue in our waters. Need to cut the use of this stuff in a large way and keep it out of the bay.

Also the sewage plants get away with a lot and the dumping of raw sewage is not acceptable in my book.

[gwag]

Scott-nra is dead on ,if the govt. is involved something is scewed up and someone is getting screwed over . THe NPS is a joke the past and current DOI have conspired to ruin what was one of the finest park systems in the world.Our parks are now legal battle grounds with enviro extremist lawyers suing to take away our access then being paid their outrageous fee's with our tax dollars. The NPS colludes with enviro extremist to deny the american public the right to use the parks as they were intended.The rangers are now enforcers and the facilities are becoming run down due to neglect. The other agencies mentioned are suspect as well. How many police forces does one democracy need . When the people fear the govt. there is tyranny , when the govt. fears the people there is liberty.

[jethrosixxx]

Just a thought. The Susquehanna starts in Cattle Country in Upstate New York and runs through Coal Country in Pennsylvania. Shouldn't they be included in all "Chesapeake Bay Watershed Regulations"?

"The environmental group American Rivers named the Susquehanna "America's Most Endangered River for 2005" due to the excessive pollution it receives. Most of the pollution in the river is due to excess animal manure from farming, agricultural runoff, urban and suburban stormwater runoff, and raw or inadequately treated sewage. In 2003 the river alone contributed 44% of the nitrogen, 21% of the phosphorus, and 21% of the sediment flowing into the Chesapeake Bay. Pennsylvania may be subject to EPA sanctions if it does not reduce its pollution in the watershed by 2010.[6] It was designated as one of the American Heritage Rivers in 1997.[7] The designation provides for technical assistance from federal agencies to state and local governments working in the Susquehanna watershed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_River

[Matt]

The requirement to reduce pollution in the Bay is proving much harder than the requirement to identify pollution. IMHO MDE did a very good job identifying pollution, but they're getting a failing grade on reduction. The 303d list for tidal water keeps growing; very few polluted bodies of water get removed. When MDE wrote a bacterial TMDL for my creek I got as smart as I could about the whole deal. My creek got on the list, MDE wrote a TMDL, and here we sit with absolutely no sunset plan. Polluted forever. Bacterial TMDLs, in my view, can be the toughest of all the classes of pollution. If a primary source of the bacteria is human origin, the whole deal becomes a political hot potato. Thats the case in my creek. Sampling concluded bacteria levels spike after periods of heavy rainfall. Those spikes took us over the limit. Antibiotic resistance testing concluded the human source of bacteria was significantly higher than the TMDL predicted. And we know there are several maybe dozens of old failing septic systems in the watershed. The approach I recommended was to take samples for resistance testing from the creek after the heavy rainfalll. Thats the condition that caused us to be polluted. Test those data points. Nope. So here we sit, with an aging TMDL going nowhere. The whole thing is ridiculous, in the most literal sense of the word. I would go to bawlmer and tell them what I think, but I don't think we have the political will to deal with the onsy-twosies. For the same effort and cost they would need to convert all these failing septics to improve one little creek, they can do something that has much higher visibility and political value.

[gwag]

Matt is correct ,the failing and non-existent septic systems that are grand fathered are as big a problem as the lawn care zealots. In Va. there is an agency that fixes or replaces dilapidated homes and then repairs or replaces the septic and well. They are a non-profit that works through the state ,instead of wasting money globe trotting maybe the prez could spend that money on the bay . I could replace 8-10 systems with just the money Odummy spends on date night with the hag.

[Matt]

Overfertilizing is a nutrient pollution issue, failing septic systems are nutrient and bacteria, but mostly bacteria. If we're looking for a smoking gun on nutrient pollution, I would look at storm water. I think agriculture still leads nutrient pollution overall, but sstorm water is the fastest growing problem and close second, I think. Lawn fertilizer is a problem, but I think the cost of fertilizer tends to slow people down. I'd love to see rules for fertilizer, such as no application before core aeration.

[CSLUG]

Hope this works. Here is a couple of farms local to my house. All have streams feeding the bay.

Little gunpowder cows in stream and lots of mud.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt176/cslug_photo/cows3.jpg?t=1277067883

Big dairy op stream feeds deer creek and lot of mud

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt176/cslug_photo/cows2.jpg?t=1277067972

Sheep... lots of sheep. Off rt 136

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt176/cslug_photo/sheep.jpg?t=1277068032

Sad thing is I could do this all day for every stream that feeds the bay.

[Scott_nra]

AND! If you are going to do it, spend some of that wonderful "government funding" in paying for it for the farmers instead of shoving down their throat. Yeah, I know...Gov't Funding my @$$. But they waste a lot more of our money fighting about it with those lawyers whos only true goal is to pad their pockets. You have to make it make sense economicaly for the farmer or you aren't getting anywhere. More "Kool Aid" anyone? :-)

Need some more funding? How about not ripping up rt 207 and 301 from AP Hill to Dalhgren ever 2 years and repaving it for no reason other than to spend money? (etc, etc) THere is a few Million for you.

[BILL H]

I am certainly not going to argue that parts of government (Federal, State, or local) are not screwed up. Just like parts of private industry (BP anyone) and non-profit groups. However, when anyone starts off with a blanket statement that all government activities except (insert your pet ox here) are screwed up, then I know that the individual is not thinking for himself, but rather is regurgitating the latest rant from the airways or blogosphere. Now if someone gives specifics (and not just that NPS has screwed up our park system without any background or particulars), then it is worthy of discussion

But perhaps not in this thread. This was a request for individuals to get involved in a Maryland-specific activity, with a specific thrust toward a notorious industry. And the activity had room for input on other topics. But instead there were the predictable departures into government bashing, the contributions from New York and Pennsylvania, and the like.

Just how many provided any input (regardless of the topic) to the link provided in the OP so the Governor could hear your thoughts? I did, and I concentrated my remarks on Big Chicken.

[BILL H]

AND! If you are going to do it, spend some of that wonderful "government funding" in paying for it for the farmers instead of shoving down their throat. Yeah, I know...Gov't Funding my @$$. But they waste a lot more of our money fighting about it with those lawyers whos only true goal is to pad their pockets. You have to make it make sense economicaly for the farmer or you aren't getting anywhere. More "Kool Aid" anyone? :-)

Need some more funding? How about not ripping up rt 207 and 301 from AP Hill to Dalhgren ever 2 years and repaving it for no reason other than to spend money? (etc, etc) THere is a few Million for you.

Wait a minute. We should pay farmers to do the right thing? We have been doing that for years, and we still have crap in the water. Sorry, but farmers are a business, and in many ways are just like any other business. They have to make their nut, and if the only way they can do it is by shortchanging the environment, then it is just plain wrong and something is out of whack. I don't propose giving them (or any other polluting business) any money. Make them responsible for their contamination, and they will need to adjust their prices accordingly to clean it up. Then the market can speak. Those farmers that do it efficiently will be rewarded, and those that do it inefficiently will be penalized. And the ultimate consumers of the farmers' products will have to pay a bit more for food that doesn't contaminate our water in its production.

[gwag]

Bill H A little interest and a fiftlh grade reading level will allow you to find out all the specifics you need about the current disgraceful condition of our national parks.spend a little time studying the current situation in cape hatteras, you will find out about the lack of maintenence and the out rageous restrictions placed on the american citizen. I am all for pollution control at all levels as long as it is enforced in a fair and reasonable manner. The govt. has a job to do ,it just needs to be scaled back to handle its original intent according to the constitution . we the people do not need a nanny state run by socialist.

[hackeyfly]

Just to be clear, the NPS has been withering on the vine for the last 30 years. There's no return for politicians to spend money there, unless it involves handing over the lucrative concession contracts to a crony, so they go without. And I bet a fair portion of the electorate could give a damn about some do-nothing parks they have no interest in ever visiting, much less support with their tax $$$. So it's a tough sell. Shouldn't be, but that's the way things are.
Pat in Joppa

[Matt]

public comment on a web tool isn't going to change anything. If you want something done, you better at least follow up with a phone call, and know WTF you're talking about

[BILL H]

Matt,
I take that pleasant reply to mean that you did nothing. Grow up a bit, and it may be possible to have a rational conversation. And maybe you could provide a clear, non-infantile explanation of the errors of my ways. I am always interested in learning new things.

[BILL H]

Bill H A little interest and a fiftlh grade reading level will allow you to find out all the specifics you need about the current disgraceful condition of our national parks.spend a little time studying the current situation in cape hatteras, you will find out about the lack of maintenence and the out rageous restrictions placed on the american citizen. I am all for pollution control at all levels as long as it is enforced in a fair and reasonable manner. The govt. has a job to do ,it just needs to be scaled back to handle its original intent according to the constitution . we the people do not need a nanny state run by socialist.

gwag,
I believe I might be able to muster that reading level if I make a big stretch, although I do believe that even today's schools address capitalization before the 5th grade. Perhaps your refusal to capitalize American may have been a political statement, as opposed to just bad writing. However, it would have been much more effective and appropriate to your mindset to use "Amerikan citizen".

Nevertheless, I would be a bit concerned about getting my information from something written at a 5th-grade level. Whatever floats your dinghy..

However, you are the one who gratuitously introduced the NPS issue in a discussion about Big Chicken. I think if someone gets so far off the target, they could have at least provided the context for their remarks. No, I am not interested in the NPS as a discussion point on Big Chicken; neither am I interested in the NPS as solely an "anti's" effort to bash government in general. Perhaps you could start your own thread, and have your discussion there. I might not drop by.

[gwag]

billh it is very comforting to know you are the resident grammar and spelling nazi,the world is a better place when anal retentative internet nazis'dont know or understand the difference between casual banter and a term paper. do you insist people add commas and announce capitalizations when they speak to you?You obviously dont understand the fifth grade readin level comment so let me help. I was trying to insinuate that all that is needed is a little interest and ability to adequately research the nps or other govt. agency.

[rgminer]

It looks to me like the Socialist leader in Annapolis is focusing on trying to destroy big business and is disguising it as "environmental cleanup" Why only target the chicken farmers? Why not the waste water treatment plants the state and counties run? Why not the non chicken farms in PA and NY who's run off pollutes the bay? Why not the lawn care companies? Why not anyone else?

The bay is in the state it is BECAUSE of socialist's like Owe Malley. With small exception, his party has controlled policy and policing what goes into the bay for decades and has refused to spend the money or pass the laws really needed to clean up the bay. There is no political benefit to be gained by cleaning up the bay. The money is better used for all Spanish all the time television stations, or spent on groups like CASA DE MAryland or any number of social programs all designed to earn political brownie points and buy votes. There won't be a true and serious effort to clean up the bay until it's illegal for those who suck the government teet to vote for those who hand out tax dollars like they were candy...

[Matt]

my approach to this stuff is to work the stops patiently and persistently. This meant personal visits to my legislators office to discuss my concern and why helping me is good for him. It meant calling MDE and forcing them to deal with issues. I worked with the county health dept and the local wastewater operators to get consensus on a solution . As a result of my effort the state committed funds for antibiotic resistance testing in my creek. This was an accomplishment because it proved human contribution to fecal bacteria was significantly higher than estimated in the TMDL for our watershed. I won't take it to your level billh but I can honestly say, I haven't read much here from you that says you should act like a moderator of this board. We all should be allowed to have an opinion without getting attacked by you. If you get to reply on this thread ten time per page, I should get to address the content of your girthy bandwidth. My opinion is that sending an email form letter is about as little as you can do and get to claim you did something. My effort, on the other hand, has been going for years. I'm not asking for credit but I'm not laying down for your bs attack either.

[BILL H]

Matt,
I applaud your efforts. If you thought my comment about whether or not you made any comment on the web site was a personal attack on you. I apologize. I was solely commenting on the fact that you responded with a cutesy implied obscenity questioning my knowledge when I asked whether anyone who commented on this thread had actually followed up (whether it is the minimum, or not). If you felt that was an attack on you, that is your issue.

I may not always agree with you or your comments, but I am not looking to pick a fight with someone who is at least interested in Bay issues.

[LY2000]

Online polls etc. that are directed at elected officials can't be a total waste of time. It seems the politicians that are most successful today are the ones using the net to listen and to speak out. Some can do more than others and some can educate newbies about the issues on forums like this... hopefully creating a snow ball effect in the favor of the Bay. I bet 75% of the users of Tidal Fish had zero idea who Omega was before they got online.

[Matt]

Online polls etc. that are directed at elected officials can't be a total waste of time. It seems the politicians that are most successful today are the ones using the net to listen and to speak out. Some can do more than others and some can educate newbies about the issues on forums like this... hopefully creating a snow ball effect in the favor of the Bay. I bet 75% of the users of Tidal Fish had zero idea who Omega was before they got online.

all true, I think you can influence the way people think using the internet, but changing big things through the internet alone is a sketchy proposition.