Pound net notice

[Tom Powers]

The following was on the VMRC Web site. I have no clue as to the location, its use, etc. I figured folks on this board may care.

March 21, 2006: Notice is hereby given that Ernest L. George of White Stone, Virginia has applied to the Marine Resources Commission to license and locate a pound net in the Rappahannock River at N 37° 34.474’ and W 76° 22.100,’ three miles above Buoy #8 (Sturgeon Bar Buoy) in Middlesex County, approximately 1500 feet from shore.

The program was put in place so that folks that are directly impacted by a pound net (al la Windmill Point) can speak before the commercial fisherman dumps $!5 grand into setting a net out.

Send your comments to Jack Travelstead at VRMC.


jack.travelstead@mrc.virginia.gov
Fax - (757) 247-8101
Phone 757-247-2247

Virginia Marine Resources Commission Main Office
2600 Washington Avenue, 3rd Floor
Newport News, VA 23607
Attn. Jack Travelstead

Tom

[wasabi]

Tom (or someone else),

What is visible when you see a pound net? Is it the type with a bunch of poles in a circle? I recall large net(s) immediately below the Tapp bridge that seemingly stretched half way across the river. They weer so long it was not intuitively obvious there was a net strung between whatever end bouys they might have had. You have to stop, backtrack and go way around it if you are lucky enough to notice it.

Are the ones closer to the Tapp bridge gill nets for croaker?

[marstang50va]

wasabi,
it is a line of poles sometimes, 100yds or more, with a cluster of poles at the end. you cant miss it. I believe this is a relocation of an existing pound net. not sure.

[jwas1]

I have been on the Rapp for 30+ years and do not recall a pound net between Sturgeon Bar and the Whitestone bridge. Will check chart to see whether it is on the north or south side of the river.

[rmlewisjr]

It should be on the south side of the river just off SR 662 in Hardyville.

[Chris Newsome]

I'm hoping it is the relocation of the net located down river about 1/4mi from the proposed site. Anybody know?

Chris

[HCKRUSE]

Sturgeon Bar Buoy is # 7 not # 8

[HCKRUSE]

After checking a little further I think Chris is right. It is a relocation of the pound net that was near the entrance of Windmill Pont marina and because of a lot of pressure from the folks in that area it is being moved to the south side of the river. According to those numbers I would guess it would be 1500' off shore between Woods Creek and the Rock pile off North End Landing. A bit further east'ward though. So I guess we will have 2 Pound nets on the south side of the river close to each other unless he decides to give up one......that would be most unlikley...

[jrocket567]

Chris, I do not think that this net is the one that you are thinking of- it was located right at Windmill Point, east of the marina entrance, touching shore...There are a few more scattered just west of the marina, and as far as I know, are still there
JP
"KwikRelease"

[Tom Powers]

All I know is the information that I posted. If someone really has an interest (and knowledge about the specific location, etc.) I suggest that they call Jack and talk to him. The stuff that happened at Windmill point is the reason that there is now a public notice process. In other words . . . figure out what is really going on . . . and speak now if there is a problem . . . or you have no right to complain once a the poles and net, which can stretch 1200 feet, goes up.

Tom

PS If you do talk to Jack and get more info how about posting it for the rest of the folks that care.

PSS If this were in my neck of the woods I would be making calls, etc. I am just trying to make sure that everybody is aware of the request.

[GWcpa]

There used to be a lot more of those around. I just wish they would put a danged light on them in the summer. I've come real close a couple of times to being part of the catch. Once in a blowboat. Those telephone poles they use to mark the artificial reefs suck too.

I don't have a problem with pound nets. Good spot to catch peelers. At least the one at Windmill had deep water behind it so you could take a short cut into Windmill creek. (If you didn't run aground going into the creek. )

[HCKRUSE]

Tom;
Thanks for the information on the pound net application. I will alert some of the local folks in the area that are not "on line" to this information here. Some are aware of the problems that existed across the river @ Windmill Point Marina with the pound net situation.

Thanks

Howard

[jwas1]

I checked the chart. Despite what I said about no nets above Sturgeon Bar, there are a few poles remaining of an old net just off the rock remains of North End Wharf. I assume the waterman plans to reestablish this net. I can see why since there are always rockfish in those rocks. Too bad he will pick up those fish. That is a fun place to cast with fly or light tackle. Wonder how the people who own the cottages along the beach there feel about a new net? I assume there will be a lot more bird activity with a pound.
The comment about no lights on pound nets is right on. When sailboat racing from Annapolis to Hampton several years ago, we hit a net in 42' of water off Dividing Creek at night.

[Chris Newsome]

The net at the down river side of the rock pile is a working net. It was put in about 3yrs ago by the same guy that is proposing the new net. The spot has never been the same since. The new net is proposed to go on the up river side of the rocks so he'll have the area boxed in pretty well. Too bad one person is allowed to monoplized a resource by himself. I as a light tackle guide and many other recreational fisherman used to fish those rocks. Now the largest shallow water structure within probably a 20 mile radius has been stolen from the public by one individual.

Chris

[Chris Newsome]

GWcpa wrote
I don't have a problem with pound nets. Good spot to catch peelers.

I believe there is a law that prevents you from going within 100' of a working net. Does anybody know?

Chris

[chesbay]

Chris,
What would it take to prevent the the pound net from happening. You are right, one person should not be able to take the bulk of the resource from others. It's not just the recreational guys that are affected, you and other guides are losing the resource as well.

[jrocket567]

Chris Newsome originally wrote:
GWcpa wrote
I don't have a problem with pound nets. Good spot to catch peelers.

I believe there is a law that prevents you from going within 100' of a working net. Does anybody know?

Chris


ehhh....depends on how you interpert the law...Ill admit that I am in the condo complex that started this entire mess; although I will say I didnt have many problems with it, except it was on (what used to be) one heck of a grass flat...

We ran into that problem of fishing too close to the net a couple of times, and a few boats were reported to VMRC because of it. I believe the law is written that the pound netter must 'flag' the net to keep people from fishing around it...which led to one of the conflicts between us and him.
Since the net was placed there, the specs have been nothing like what they were, but the grass itself has grown, thanks to no jet skis.
JP
"KwikRelease"

[Tom Powers]

There is a law that says that you can not . . . heck below is the wording. . .It was written at the request of Walter Coles Burrows (sp?) about 4 or 5 years ago. I personally .do not like this law I can also say that I have never seen a flagged net.

I saw in a letter, or staff report somewhere that the pound netter at Windmill Point is prohibited from flagging his net.

Tom

4 VAC 20-20-35. No-fishing zone.

A. The prohibited fishing zone around any pound net shall consist of that area bounded by two straight lines, 125 feet from the left and right sides of the centerline of the pound net, which extend parallel with the longest axis of the net from the channelward end of the head of the net to the shoreward end of the leader of the net.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person fishing from a boat or vessel to anchor, drift, troll, or otherwise to fish within, or to cast into the prohibited fishing zone of any pound net which is marked according to the provisions of subsection C of this section. Further, it shall be unlawful for any person to take or harvest crabs from any part of a pound net which is marked according to the provisions of subsection C of this section, unless such person has the written permission of the owner of the pound net.

C. If the owner of a pound net intends that the prohibited fishing zone be enforced around his pound net, that owner shall mark his net with flags placed at each end of the net, one at the channelward end of the head of the net and one at the shoreward end of the leader of the net. Each flag shall be of blaze-orange color, 12 inches high and 12 inches wide, and shall be supported by a mast of sufficient size to maintain the bottom of the flag at least four feet above the surface of the water.

D. It shall be unlawful for any person to tamper with any flag marking the prohibited fishing zone of any pound net.

E. It shall be unlawful for any person to tie, fasten or secure any boat or vessel to any pole, stake, netting or any other part of a pound net or staked gill net, except during the normal lawful fishing of such nets by the licensee, his crew or agent.

[Chris Newsome]

Thanks Tom.

The inshore end of the current pound net at North End Wharf butts directly up to the rock pile, so in essence he can claim 250' of rock structure to himself.

I depend on such fish attracting structures for income, so can I go out and claim 250' for myself..... I think not![wink] We are talking about public waters owned by everyone and no single person should be able to claim them for themselves!

Chris

[gottogofishing]

last time i was out off of the nets at north end i dont recall them being flaged for the no fishing limits

[Ginger]

I watch this board every day for info on the ways of fishing and bait location and weather tips and local advice and such. I have been on the water or at sea my whole life and intend to stay here a long time with my old wood boat. I know some of the folks involved with this thread and know them to be honest and hard working. I have followed Capt Ernie George out of the creek early in the morning as he headed for his pound net in the river but more often then not I passed him coming back in as i started out. I sometimes see him around town as he works his other jobs during the week. I see others of you around town, in tackle stores and on the water. Good men all. I have learned over time to be slow to anger and slower to hop into something that is not my business. I have no dog in this fight. I have waited three days to post this reply. When i was a young man and jobs were being handed out I'm real glad that I didn't get in the waterman line. I would have loved it and I would have worked myself ragged. My feeling is that if a man wants to work the water, help him do it as long as he is not obstructing safe navigation.

[saltyfly]

I have never seen flags on any of the nets around windmill point or in the fleets bay area. The gillnets are often flagged. I agree with chris about the monopoly of an area. A few years ago there was a gill net in little bay that literally stretched across the whole opening to the bay and it was full of short stripers and RED DRUM about 15-20 inches long. That was the last year the redfishing was any good in the area where the net was. I respect the challenges of making a living as a waterman, but nets in shallow water areas is chopping off your nose to spite your face. These are grass flats and resources that are getting trashed. They are also unquestionably marine hazards.

[saltyfly]

[Tom Powers]

Saltfly,

The flags on gill nets do not have the same legal meaning as those on pound nets. For gill nets they are just there to let boaters know where the net is located. With respect to a gill net across a bay, creek or river. There is a law in state code that prohibits setting any net more than 1/4 of the way across any body of water (distance measured at MLW).

With respect to the net at Windmill point (I think that the owner is Mr. George). The shame there is that the public notice process was not in place before he got the permit and set the net out. He followed the law when he placed his net. Once he put it in place he had a big investment in gear, material and labor, not counting the cost of potentially removing the poles, etc. The folks that live next to it feel put upon because of the net for various reasons one of which is that they had not warning that it was coming. They paid a lot of money for those condos which were next to open water with no pound net. To a certain extent both sides of the issue have legitiment reasons to feel that the are in the right.

The new process of public notices gives everybody a fair chance to bring their concerns before the Commission before the permit is issued (and the commercial waterman spends the money setting out the gear). If there is an issue then both sides can deal with it in advance and (maybe) find some middle ground. If no one objects to the placement VMRC staff issues a permit without the matter going before the Commission. I post the notices so that folks who, like most of us do not read the legal section, have a chance to be hear about the application prior to the issuance of a permit. I leave it up to folks who know the local waters to voice thier own concerns.


I can give you a similar example on the other side of the fence. There was a request for a permit for an artificial reef outside of the mouth of the Poquoson River. The local watermen pointed out to the Commission that the area in question is an important clamming ground. The Commission sent them back to meet with staff and representives of the recreational fishing community in order to come up with another spot that will not provide the same negative impact for the commercial fishermen, but still offer a good location for an near shore artificial reef. We will see what happens as both sides work throug the process.

Tom

[jwas1]

When a shoreline structure permit is requested, VMRC notifies adjacent property owners by mail. Does the same happen with pound nets or are property owners on their own as far as learning about the "public" notice?

[captaingeorge]

Ginger originally wrote:
I watch this board every day for info on the ways of fishing and bait location and weather tips and local advice and such. I have been on the water or at sea my whole life and intend to stay here a long time with my old wood boat. I know some of the folks involved with this thread and know them to be honest and hard working. I have followed Capt Ernie George out of the creek early in the morning as he headed for his pound net in the river but more often then not I passed him coming back in as i started out. I sometimes see him around town as he works his other jobs during the week. I see others of you around town, in tackle stores and on the water. Good men all. I have learned over time to be slow to anger and slower to hop into something that is not my business. I have no dog in this fight. I have waited three days to post this reply. When i was a young man and jobs were being handed out I'm real glad that I didn't get in the waterman line. I would have loved it and I would have worked myself ragged. My feeling is that if a man wants to work the water, help him do it as long as he is not obstructing safe navigation.
Wise words, Ginger. I wonder why some of the same people that decry the changing flavor of the Northern Neck away from the good ole days are quick to criticize the actions of watermen and appear to do whatever they can to make his life difficult.

[Tom Powers]

Up until about a year ago the adjacent property owners were not notified. Since then here is what the law says.

4 VAC 20-25-20. CONTENT AND PUBLICATION OF PUBLIC NOTICE.
A. The owner of any pound net, making application to the Commission to license that pound net at a new location, shall advertise, in the form of a public notice, the proposed new location of the pound net and the applicant's name and address. The proposed location of the pound net shall be described in terms of its latitude and longitude and its position relative to the shoreline and landward properties, with reference to the nearest onshore locality.

B. The public notice shall be approved by the Commissioner or his designee and shall be advertised in a newspaper of general circulation, in the area where the pound net is proposed. The applicant shall assume the cost of publication of the public Notice.

C. It shall be the responsibility of the owner of any pound net, making application to the Commission to license that pound net at a new location, to provide the Commission with names and addresses of all land owners and residents within 500 feet of the most shoreward end of the proposed, new pound net location. Upon receipt of this information, the Commission shall place a copy of the public notice on the agency's website and shall inform, in writing, all land owners and residents, within 500 feet of the proposed, new pound net location, of the public notice.


The complete regulation can be found at:

http://www.mrc.state.va.us/regulations/fr25.shtm

Tom

[FleetonLight]

Ginger originally wrote:
I watch this board every day for info on the ways of fishing and bait location and weather tips and local advice and such. I have been on the water or at sea my whole life and intend to stay here a long time with my old wood boat. I know some of the folks involved with this thread and know them to be honest and hard working. I have followed Capt Ernie George out of the creek early in the morning as he headed for his pound net in the river but more often then not I passed him coming back in as i started out. I sometimes see him around town as he works his other jobs during the week. I see others of you around town, in tackle stores and on the water. Good men all. I have learned over time to be slow to anger and slower to hop into something that is not my business. I have no dog in this fight. I have waited three days to post this reply. When i was a young man and jobs were being handed out I'm real glad that I didn't get in the waterman line. I would have loved it and I would have worked myself ragged. My feeling is that if a man wants to work the water, help him do it as long as he is not obstructing safe navigation.


Nicely put Ginger. The man is trying to make a living. Im quite sick of people coming to the Northen Neck and then trying to change everything that doesnt suit them. The watermen on the Neck are for the most part good and reasonable men, bringing YOU the fish and crabs that you SO LOVE to harp on about how much you love to eat. Your fishing will be fine, also, someone mentioned something about a grassflat being reduced or negatively impacted somehow by a pound net, while sitting in their CONDO....some of you people amaze me. Did you ever stop to think that all the sediment and fertilizer runoff from your CONDO had any negative impact on the grass bed? Probably not. It was the watermans fault im sure.