Why kill the big female spawners?

[fly flinger]

I personally, since 1993 have killed exactly two striped bass for the table. I'm a C&R angler by choice. Tarpon fishing our guide breaks off the fish, no grip & grin photo, and the fish is still a tad green when set free, again, our choice. There is a raft of issues concerning catch & release mortality, a real hot topic, but a worthwhile dialog to pursue. At least, the worst release is better than the hero shot of a dead fish. Recently I learned that a 200+ pound tarpon may be 300 hundred years old. What a shame to kill off an old girl just to have 15 minutes of fame on youtube.

So, I ask this BB: why kill off the spawners? Look at the photos that grace the pages of this website, the front cover of magazines, advertising, the ego grabbing photo that says someone has achieved dominance over a wild creature and you too can be a hero. Use our gear, stay at our lodge, hire me as your guide, charter my boat, stay at my location, etc.

The examples of mishandling fish are everywhere in the media, on office & home walls. Fish mortality after release is an unknown quantity but significant. Holding a fish by its jaw or gill plate can't be good for the fish. Throwing a jaded fish back with out a proper sustained reviving is a killer. In the long run we are depriving the ecosystem of millions of opportunities for life: fish abortion.

This year I ask ya'll to take the very best care you can of our fish and to think about your actions before the drag starts to sing.

[paxfish]

Although there is no scientific evidence of widespread striper jaw damage and "fish abortions", I agree with the spirit of your post.

There are excellent tips here on how to catch and release responsibly:
http://www.carefulcatchmaryland.com/live/

[27 sailfish]

Believe it or not but each year more anglers are releasing the bigger Rockfish.
Catch and release is getting better and anglers are sharing info on proper technique.
Rockfish are fairly hardy - they do well as a C/R fish.

If you look back about 30 year - most Marlin were brought back to the dock ( killed ).
Now very few are killed.

I think the same will happen with bigger Rockfish one day.
I'd love to see a slot limit similar to Red Drum. None are allowed to be killed once they reach a certain size.

[fly flinger]

Although there is no scientific evidence of widespread striper jaw damage and "fish abortions", I agree with the spirit of your post.

There are excellent tips here on how to catch and release responsibly:
http://www.carefulcatchmaryland.com/live/

By abortion, I meant to say, "killing the mature females is akin to giving the fish an abortion." There have been reports looking at the pressure exerted on the jaws of ANY fish when held in the vertical position and how the innards are pressed towards the rear. I think the concern was tearing the lining of the abdominal cavity.

Not only do fishermen have to conserve what's left: it's our responsibility to future generations to increase what we now enjoy.

[27 sailfish]

It might be OK for smaller fish but IMHO - not good to lift a bigger fish by jaw alone.
Better - again , my opinion - to hold the belly at the same time.

Not a big fan of the Boga type grippers.

Years ago we C/R a 35 lber. Weighed it on a hand scale and felt something tear along the jaw.
Now - just measure or guess the weight.

Flip side - I have caught some Rockfish with jaw / mouth injuries that were healed over.

[Lunkster]

This subject can be a very polarizing one for sure. I am 52 years old and fish very little but when I do fish I keep bluefish and love to eat them. Stripers, I have kept 4 during the trophy seasons in my 5 trips to troll off Bloody Point. Not that I release many I only get to go once every other year and sometimes do not catch any. In the susky, when fall fishing I C&R. Might keep one each season. So on my boat I try to keep it a bit balanced siding on the C&R side but I am very concerned about the trophy season and while trolling catching a fish and putting it back. Just not confident they make it after the very hard fight. But I can see guys point of views that purchase thousands of dollars of equipment, boats, electronics and want some payback within the legal limits of fishing regulations. I see folks on both sides of the fence...I just believe there is room for everyone when fishing within the limits of the law. No room for abusers, poachers, and folks catching more and keeping more that legal limits.

[CaptNemo]

Killing an 18" female has the exact same effect on killing a 45" female full of eggs, you remove them from the breeding stock.

[Kevin Smith]

When you look back at the success of our puppy drum stocks since folks started throwing back the big one, it speaks volumes about what needs to be done.

Thanks for raising this issue, just before the cows start to head back into the Chesapeake Bay! Great thread!

Kevin
Weekend Mistress

[Southerly]

I'll disagree about the worst release being better than a hero shot followed by fillet and grill.

A bad, and sometimes even what seems like a pretty good C/R results in an utter waste of resource and waste of life. If the worst release resulted in survival, or at least somehow stopped the fisherman from repeating over and over - I'd agree with you. i think facts support an analogy that C/R is a beautiful girl that winks and promises you more to come, and discard mortality is her obnoxious friend ever ready to mess everything up.

I think if you really want to not hurt fish, you'd have to sit on the couch - however, I believe there are many 'middle paths'. This is one of the reasons that the more I've researched C/R, the more I appreciate DNR's efforts at determing what actually happens after fish are released and providing as wide an assortment of opportunities for fishermen to put hooks in fish to satisfy their individual wants and needs as reasonably possible.

I have to assume everyone has noticed how easy it is for fishermen to 'give up' whatever practice it is they don't personally pursue, ie suggest that it should be made illegal. i don't think it's nearly as greedy and self-serving as it seems at first, if you consider the possibility that most fishermen are doing what it is they believe is 'right'. Some fished and hunted with their fathers (maybe a thousand generations back) and would like to do the same with their children, some want a trophy, some just want to do whatever? it is they're doing out there.

I think the mistake is to argue fishing in general, or C/R in particular as being as clear as black and white as regards how/why it should be done.

food for thought - is there anything wrong with shooting your neighborhood birds with a slingshot if nearly all of them survive? should we even call that 'hunting'? and more importantly - how/why has legitimate hunting survived into this liberal day and age? i would say it's because even most of those that don't personally want to do it, acknowledge at some level, that each time they bite into a hamburger, some big-eyed cow was killed; and therefore can't condemn hunting so long as it's not unnecesarily cruel and hurtful.

[Southerly]

personally, i'm with you on not killing the big ones. for me, it's the food advisory (young girl at home) and the idea that they're that close to dropping 1-3M eggs.

but if i had a big one noticeably bleeding and it was season, i'd keep it and eat it myself. i really don't knock the guys that go out with idea of getting one to bring home. but at least learn how to trim the red meat, enjoy the fish as safely as possible.

if the stock is in trouble, i hope ASMFC wakes up and DNR gets in step and continues to provide as much opportunity for as many as possible.

personally, i could care less if all targeting striper were verbotten - i'd go sailing. and i've got too much money in gear too, but that's not an argument for smashing a fishery.

[fly flinger]

Killing an 18" female has the exact same effect on killing a 45" female full of eggs, you remove them from the breeding stock.

"THE COMPLETE BOOK OF THE STRIPED BASS" by Karas. Females are generally capable of spawning at age 4 (18"), though the greater percentage of a year-class reach sexual maturity at age 5 (22"). Females may spawn annually but as they age their spawning becomes sporadic.

The big cow you kill may not be ripe this year but will be sooner or later. This means in order to have the greatest opportunity to increase the striped bass tribe you have to protect the largest fish (females) for the longest time possible.

[jnashed]

Killing an 18" female has the exact same effect on killing a 45" female full of eggs, you remove them from the breeding stock.

This is not completly true actually. A 45" fish has lived long enough to become a successful breeder and produces a tremendous amount of eggs with a high fucundity. You assume that 18" fish will make it to 45". The 18inch fish may get to that point after 15yrs but natural factors (and manmade) will mean that most 18" fish never get to be 45" and many if not most will never breed. Also many larger fish may have become larger and lived longer because of some advantage it has such as immunity to diease, resisitance to pollution, or something else. Natural selection may have been part of the reason that 45" fish survived. Of course plan luck may be the answer to, but you can never now. So taking the largest fish and oldest fish out of the breeding cycle has more impact now and later.
Jim

[Matt]

Its not fair to assume an 18" fish will make it 45". By far maybe to the tune of 95% of all fish over 36" are female fish. Very few male fish make it to 40". That’s what the data says anyway. Some here will tell you different. I rely on DNR's gillnet data, with hundreds of fish recorded (and definitively checked for gender) over about ten years following the moratorium. Once we accept the fact that virtually all fish over 36" are females, the whole picture changes. We could discuss these facts and reality; I frankly do not believe data will convince some people that most of these fish are females, or that they're full of roe. Part of DNR's culpability in this decline of striped bass is how they have failed to educate and virtually encouraged the killing of breeding aged females in our so called "trophy" season. What kind of trophy is it to catch roe laden females on the spawning migration? In my view its like catching spawning largemouth off their beds, when they're easy to find and exceptionally aggressive. For this basic reason, most anadromous intercept fisheries have either been halted or curtailed. Not in Maryland. In Md we encourage killing roe laden spawners. We call it a trophy. In Maryland we can't keep largemouth bass during spawning season, but we encourage the killing of striped bass. Doesn't make much sense.

[fly flinger]

Matt:

Very good point you made concerning "trophy" season. Karas, in his book, also said that some male striped bass change their sex to female. This further clouds the picture of spawning effort.

[Matt]

Not sure what the author is basing his claim on but I think gender change is more of a myth than any kind of fact. Some fish have exhibited gender problems as a result of environmental factors - some blame BCPs in wastewater but who knows. I think the best most responsible approach here is to stick to the best available science which says boys are boys and girls are girls. ASMFC reports that females are 50% mature at age 6 (25 - 26”) whereas males are 100% mature at age 3 (18”). According to ASMFC every female removed in the Chesapeake Bay 18" fishery was immature. Not sure how we can expect a sustainable fishery if DNR allows people to take unlimited females before they are recruited to the spawning stock.

[fly flinger]

[QUOTE=Matt; ASMFC reports that females are 50% mature at age 6 (25 - 26”) whereas males are 100% mature at age 3 (18”). According to ASMFC every female removed in the Chesapeake Bay 18" fishery was immature. Not sure how we can expect a sustainable fishery if DNR allows people to take unlimited females before they are recruited to the spawning stock.[/QUOTE]

Matt: you make a very good point about sustainability. Is it possible for a neophyte to distinguish the female from male striped bass? It would make sense to protect the females so they can spawn. I know the fish my partner caught was a male as the fish spewed milt when it was landed. Other than that episode I'm not sure how to tell the sexes apart.

[Southerly]

i'm glad the thread almost got back on point. i was interested in the ability to make the M/F differentiation and less fish actually oozing milt, full of roe, or dissection could not find information on how to tell the difference.

re pics of trophy fish - there used to be a 'thing' for a hunter to be pic'd with his foot on top of some dead lion, rhino etc but times have changed. my Dad (WWII era man)told me there was guys that would shoot a deer just for the rack and leave the carcass. again, i think times have changed, and of course he taught me that wasting the animal for such a motive was wrong.

i have an old pic of me holding a big trophy rock. anyone that knows me more or less knows what i'm talking about if i say 'the fish'. over time, that 'trophy' did take on a different meaning for me and came to represent my own hubris and most likely a pretty solid hit to spawning efforts. i shared the fillets and 'times' were good so i don't feel like a criminal about it either. similar thing with pics of holding big C/R fish. my little sister thinks 'there's a place in heaven for me' for letting them go. i believe there's good possibility of survival after release, but there's also uncertainty and combined with my motive; again these pics are a dubious 'trophy'.

there was a poster who reported boat side releases of 40 and 42" fish. nice fish! but i was more impressed that he let them go w/o the additional stress of bringing on board, etc. that's been on my mind - if the hypothetical fish next to the boat was my personal best, could i be man enough to let it just swim away with boat-side release? to some extent, it would be a more meaningful trophy for me personally. and on the other hand - maybe i could pull it out, hold it nicely, get another 'me with fish pic' and not hurt her.