More Harassment from Watermen

[coggi]

Matt at this point in our debate I'm going to concede that no matter what I say you will tell me that nothing I say will sound rational to you. So on that note I wish you fair winds and tight lines.

[buckshotgumbo]

The way I look at it, is when under attack, circle the wagons.
Not at all surprised, and I don't blame them.
Like during the gil-net busts...
If the comm site wasn't full of threads about how to stop the poachers and police their own, I could see recreational sites with "They don't even care" threads.
Plus, there's nothing particularly unusual about closed sites for different clubs or organizations.
I agree, all this has been beaten to death.

[TomGlenBurnie]

greetings gentlemen,
As you know I have been listening, but not speaking for a while.
It is time to speak with kindness and honesty.
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I sincerely hope that good people will stay on this site. Buckshot is IMHO a good man, he loves this bay - We need his thoughts, his ideas. I truly respect Buckshotgumbo, and hope to fish with him someday. Either this is true or granger is a low dishonest man, you be the jury.
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Coggi, I do not know as well, but Coggi is no dummy. I prefer to listen to Coggi, and evaluate the thoughts that are posted. We are stronger with diverse ideas and opinions, IF WE THINK AND LISTEN !!! Good ideas do bubble to the surface... sooner or later bad ideas sink because they have little positive value. Coggi and I many times disagree, but I prefer to hear him out... I am trying to be a better wiser fellow. Not done that journey yet! I hope that this respectful olive branch is accepted.
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As I lose hair, and teeth, I am learning that emotion is like the opposite of wise common sense....
When we wore younger mens clothes, we were faster to anger; .......... and slower to think.
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Some time ago, I noticed some comments posted by a fellow " That I do not often enjoy".
What he had posted touched my hard heart. I marveled that we agreed on some things...
Perhaps I should listen more, and not be so quick to post a fast testosterone response...
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Thanks gents for listening.... tomgranger@comcast.net tomglenburnie

[buckshotgumbo]

I appreciate that, Tom. I'd fish with you... but I warn you, I frequently wear white boots!

[Matt]

ALthough I don't agree with Brandon starting this inflammatory thread, he did respond with authority to the text, and it worked.
...

The reason I struggle with this thread, I mentioned elsewhere, but I might as well expound...
It's inflammatory to me, as it seems to troll for a negative response and seems to have an intent to further propagate the negative opinion of watermen in general.
If we don't actually know a certain segment of society, and formulate our opinions on them based on what we choose to read or perhaps from a few brief experiences, we tend to stereotype that group.

Its hard to understand how people are expected to "know a certain segment" if that group communicates secretly. When you look at the amount of rampant disregard for rules across Maryland's commercial fishing community, a closed discussion forum is really symptomatic of the whole picture. The word that comes to mind is "clandestine."

I have said it many times, watermen in this state at least are their own worst enemy. Nothing anybody wrote in this thread is more harmful to the interests of honest commercial fishermen than the very many dishonest corner cutters that bring shame to all watermen. I think before any comm apologist criticizes people here, they need to reconcile so much blatant, repeated disregard for this states laws.

[buckshotgumbo]

Matt, I understand your point.
A point I have tried to make is that it's easy to draw a conclussion of rampant disregard based on how information is taken in, and provided.
I find it indisputable that the commercial segment is monitored and policed far more rigorously than the recreational. So naturally, statistically, they have more violations.
On that same point, it would also seem a burden to the system to have 250 nrp officers monitor 1500 watermen (making those numbers up), which lends to the unsustainable argument.
However, if the state were to have to hire enough officers to monitor the recreational segment as rigorously, that would be astonishingly expensive.
And since the recreational segment isn't monitored as stringently, I'd bet that recreational poaching is far more rampant than people care to think about.
I understand that it can be said that places like Sandy Point have officers checked regularly, but that would be like speeding in the state is under control because the run a constant radar trap at the foot of the bay bridge.

I don't disagree with you in that you have some waterman that do great harm to their community with their idiotic, selfish actions.
But I also feel that perhaps almost no one here has any idea what the real ratio of good/ bad apples is, as they choose to come to their on conclusions based on factors like this particular thread. The heading, "More Harrassment from Watermen". Perhaps I missed it, and if I did, I apologize, but MORE harrassment? I missed the prior harrassment. From waterMEN? It was 1 person that sent that text.
I think the other group communicates secretly because of distrust.

[chesbay2]

I think before any comm apologist criticizes people here, they need to reconcile so much blatant, repeated disregard for this states laws.

Wait. matt. Because i am offended and choose to defend myself that makes me an apologist for the whole commercial sector? First, there is no reason that all comms would need to apologize! But that seems to be the fallacy presented too often. I only defend myself because i am offended, like so many others, that the title of the thread said "watermen." I agree this thread was aimed at a group. It was intended to be inflamatory.

[Matt]

I find it indisputable that the commercial segment is monitored and policed far more rigorously than the recreational.

I admit I find it displeasing when people take one thing I say out of context with the rest of my post, but in this case I think you placed quite a bit of your post on this one notion, that comms are policed harder than recs. I dispute this. What way are you measuring this? If you measure it by something like "enforcement effort per harvested lb" I think rec fishing is much more heavily policed, with the vast majority of rec violations being minor infractions by any standard. On the other hand watermen are seeking to fill their holds with bounty, placing a much heavier burden on enforcement to identify and measure overages. Comms desire more gear, more gear types, more raw harvesting power. With that power come responsibility, right? But who is responsible? Most of us want the commercial fishing community to be responsible. To self police. This isn't happening. I think its fair to say this is no longer just a rec versus comm thing. Even the non-fishing taxpayers of this state are now tuned into the utter disrespect Md's watermen pay to the rights the People have bestowed upon them. The taxpayers have spoken; they want a level of enforcement that is commensurate to the level of crime. The pendulum is still swinging. Watermen are getting removed. The People have spoken.

Wait. matt. Because i am offended and choose to defend myself that makes me an apologist for the whole commercial sector? First, there is no reason that all comms would need to apologize! But that seems to be the fallacy presented too often. I only defend myself because i am offended, like so many others, that the title of the thread said "watermen." I agree this thread was aimed at a group. It was intended to be inflamatory.

I will repeat, watermen are their own worst enemy. Some of the abuses in the news in the last couple of years have been despicable, yet all I ever read here from the commtypes is how awful the mean recs are. How about, instead of blaming everyone else, we get some comms here who openly denounce illegal commercial actions without the anti-rec sentiments that time and time again demonstrate an absence of responsibility or humility.

You won't even have to show Brandon your license number.

[buckshotgumbo]

Matt, I find it displeasing that you say watermen are being taken out.
Watermen wanting more gear? What? Like we want longer lines on bigger planar boards so we can troll more rods?
As far as enforcement, here's another way to look at it.
I fish a pretty good amount employing a variety of methods. Driving my truck to a river bank to cast out a line, from a kayak, from a smaller CC, large CC tournament fishing, large deadrise trolling, chumming, bottom fishing. I've fished from Rock Hall to Va Line (mostly south of bb). I tow my boat all over and launch. I fish from eastern and western shores. I'm lucky in that I probably fish more than the average recreational fisherman. And I frequently have passengers, or am with others.
I have not been checked in 24 YEARS. I had never even heard of an angler survey until recently, and have never done one. No one has any idea what I keep.
I know a number of people that are recreational fishermen that say the same. I've been asking.
There is not a waterman alive that can say that.

[chesbay2]

You won't even have to show Brandon your license number.

99644 Have at it. Make sure you check my crab logs, fish logs, rockfish logs, and oyster logs too. It won't take you long to check my violations (amazingly i don't fit Any of Your stereotypes). I police myself rather well. I know there are others that dont. Now tell me, do you police the interstates? Because I don't go out on my days off ( there aren't many) like George Zimmerman, but stereotyping all watermen. You think I support poaching?

Holy crap. you are serious arent you? but i took the bait.


I've been in plenty of conversations with recs who are frustrated about the guy upstream who wont get caught. They are trying to keep it clean and know something fishy is going on. Be a realist. The first step in the program is to recognize you have a problem.

i will patiently wait for the next anti commercial thread under conservational and policy.