More Harassment from Watermen - Page 10
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackeyfly View Post
    I thought the comms could write off fuel as a business expense? I could be wrong.
    Pat in Joppa
    You're correct.

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  3. #92
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    Tom, I don't disagree with the notion of giving legal advice. I respect your loyalty, and understand that matters need to be taken seriously. I also read what was posted as the CL ad, as well as what Brandon posted as the text.
    No, the text shouldn't have been sent, the CL ad was beyond idiotic. The point I was making is that Brandon is a grown man, and I'm still of the frame of mind that often things, especially in a situation like this, can be resolved without involving authorities, or an entire forum, for that matter.
    Had anything been threatening in any way, ok. But the text, and even the CL ad (even though over the top) was relatively innocuous. I know there is the risk that you never know what someone is going to do, you need to keep authorities involved to establish a pattern, etc.
    Perhaps I've watched too many John Wayne movies, but I still feel like people should man up, and handle it. It feeds into an already too litigious society, that could use a little toughening up.
    ALthough I don't agree with Brandon starting this inflammatory thread, he did respond with authority to the text, and it worked.
    I suppose people will handle things differently, and that's fine. It just seemed to me, based on responses (and number of them) to the thread, we're more concerned about protecting a grown man from dem bad ol' watermen (sorry, I'm smiling, thinking about dat baaad ol pooty tat), than the actual health of the Bay.
    And since I'm on the topic of dem bad ol watermen, Pat, if the watermen are a bunch of good ol boys and rednecks, is that wrong?
    There's an entire musical genre dedicated to good ol boys and rednecks. It doesn't make them criminals, or bad people. I don't mind considering myself a good ol boy, and some may also even think of me as a bit redneck.
    I don't know why your neighbor was a "failure". Lazy? Run of bad luck? I can't, and won't speculate. Alot of businesses and people have failed.
    The reason I struggle with this thread, I mentioned elsewhere, but I might as well expound...
    It's inflammatory to me, as it seems to troll for a negative response and seems to have an intent to further propagate the negative opinion of watermen in general.
    If we don't actually know a certain segment of society, and formulate our opinions on them based on what we choose to read or perhaps from a few brief experiences, we tend to stereotype that group. That becomes opinion, and not necessarily fact. These opinions can frequently cause people to view certain segments of society in a slanted manner that's perhaps unjustified.
    And since I feel as though I know the segment in question here more than most, I'll try to give the other perspective.
    Some people don't appreciate the pride they have. What they and their family has had to do for generations to ensure that their vessel is not only able to work, but able to keep them alive from day to day. The toughness that's required. Think you're tough? Got it all figured out? Go work a week on a skipjack.
    Alot of watermen remember what that was like. Fleets getting hit by squalls and half the men in a family dying on 1 boat as multiple boats sink. Getting iced in, or becalmed for days, or weeks.
    The argument arises that they take and take. Sure, like we do gasoline.
    The other side of that, is that if the watershed wasn't so overpopulated and polluted, the Bay could keep up. Many here also remember the sprawling woods and fields, gone now for subdivisions, fertilized lawns and blacktop driveways. Massive shopping centers with acres of parking lots draining into the waterways. And all those people that came and built that big house with a fence around it where he used to hunt geese, they want their crabs and fish and oysters, until that day that they say, "Oh, we need to preserve this! And you, Mr. waterman are taking too much!"
    And they look down their nose at him, because he has that accent, and he perhaps doesn't have the social skills they developed off in college. But how could he, over decades of the drone of a diesel as he shook pots to supply their crabs?
    And now, he sees the attack on his livelihood for the sake of conservation. Yet, we do nothing about the pollution. We want to shut him down, yet VA still is the only state in the country that still allows commercial menhaden harvesting, and on a massive scale.
    We want our larger allocation, and big tournaments, and longer planar board lines, but want to shut him down.
    And to him, it's not, oh well guess we'll have to sell the boat... It's who's gonna buy an old work boat? And all this gear? And how am I going to feed my family? Will I loose everything? I'm 50, and this is all I've ever known...
    So, I urge you, unless you personally know watermen, know what it's like to walk in their shoes, just try to keep an open mind. Read some books about the watermen.. You might gain some empathy.

    I'm getting off my soapbox now...

  4. #93
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    Very well said.

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  6. #94
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    Amen buckshot.

  7. #95
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    Good post buckshot...I enjoyed reading it.
    I know where you're coming from...my roots lie in West Virginia coal miners and Beth Steel mill workers...these are the people, the "rednecks" that built and made the USA great. I was definitely dismayed toward my neighbors attitude toward his fellows, the context he used it was in a derogatory, simple-minded sense...not at all how I view the lifestyle, something that no doubt led to our conversations being of short duration and time frame...he pretty much keeps to himself now plying any skills he possesses just trying to keep a roof over his head in a declining economy. All I'm saying is...this isn't your dad's coal mine, steel mill, or waterman's industry anymore. Times change, situations change, industries change, attitudes must change with them. There has to be a change in the culture...and that goes for ALL of us. I've been involved in conservation/environmental/pollution activism and career since the '70 and land development is the greatest detriment to the health of the Bay. I've ridden along with some water men doing research so I know what a back breaking passion it entails, and the human forces that are turning the bay into the biggest muddy carp-hole in the nation. I spoke harsh words re the recent (and annual) Patapsco River sewage spill and the attitudes that permit such occurrences, priorities and antipathies. I grew up in a Dundalk row house and moved to The Shore in 2000; I take a great deal of pride every day commuting over the Bay, especially when I see the water men working. My Carolina Skiff is a commercial design and titled as such...but used mainly for conservation purposes so I am proud to launch next to fellow commercials...to have a part in the heritage of the Chesapeake. I enjoy reading Larry Simms monthly editorials but don't envy his position, a difficult one, at this critical crossroads in the industry and believe me, I want those waterman boats to remain docked and profitable at the nearby Centreville Wharf...it's part of our heritage, where we came from and must be part of the future. I have very good friend who used to work on HER dad's commercial boat out of Kent Island...he eventually was put out of business but found a career in bay conservation; shes a professional in the local financial circles so she has an understanding of the Shore culture, as do I. Buckshot, you and I are on the same boat at least, maybe different sides but looking at the same environment from different angles, and I'd be proud to ride and work with you any day.

    Pat

  8. #96
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    Well the awful watermen have struck again. As reported in the mid-atlantic inshore board a savage waterman pulled a man of an oyster bar and, get this, wouldn't accept ANY form of payment in return.

    Dastardly bunch I tell ya.

  9. #97
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    I know what you mean, Pat. I agree, times they are achangin'.
    The watermen do have associations, but unfortunately they generally don't have the far reaching strength of a union that steel workers and the like may have.
    Unfortunately, so few are computer savy, and putting so much time into making a living, they seldom pull their head up from the cull box long enough to see what's really going on. Add to that a stubborn nature, and change is slow to come for them.
    This is also why I struggle with the "us vs them" mentality. Instead of all of us working together as fishermen to combat the overpopulation and subsequent egregious pollution, we battle each other.
    It doesn't make sense to me why it has to be that way.
    My theory as to what the waterman sees, is the decline of the resources, brought on by the land development, which we agree (as do most people here) is the greatest detriment to the health of the Bay. Then, they hear that the mssa (aka, the recreational fisherman) wants to shut down nets. That stubborn nature causes them to dig in their heels, and the divide deepens. Because in their minds the large increase in recreational fishermen is in direct relation to that increase of population, which is actually the root of the problem.
    And while their head is in that cull box, we have the luxury of immediate enmass electronic communication. Few comms realize there is such a united recreational front. Which is a concern for me.
    Because I feel that the commercial waterman is on fragile footing.
    I don't wish to get into another debate as to whether nets are good or bad, whether the fishery can be/is being monitored, viable, etc..
    Not that I'm not willing to, but that isn't my point here.
    My point is the chain reaction that would ensue after a net ban... Deepen the divide, get nets banned, and I believe the commercial fishery (not just fish, but crabs, everything) in the Bay could very well collapse. All the fishing communities, collapsed. Then where do your fish and crabs come from? We as recreational fisherman will go get them ourselves. So the bay will be covered in rec crabbers and fishermen like fleas on a dog.
    And since we agree that the biggest problem for the Bay is pollution, the fisheries won't bounce back.
    Because Omega will still be netting the menhaden before they get here, and the pollution will still be rolling into the bay.
    But that's ok, once those pesky watermen are out of the way, there will be more fish for me to catch thanks to reallocation, and more slips available, and you can buy deadrises and property on the shore for nothing!
    And Pat, I'd be happy to have you ride with me. Or anyone here for that matter. We'd hop in the truck, and go meet up with some watermen. I know you've seen both sides, but more need to get the chance to understand who they really are, what they really do, and what it's really like.
    I don't know what you'd get from working with me though. I'm not a waterman. I have shook a pot or 2, worked on a boat trotlining, but never fished commercially. Although my brother in law does. I've also got a cousin that owns a skipjack. My wife used to actually cull for her Dad when she was little.. So, I'm proud to say I've got roots in the commercial sector.
    But, I'm just a recreational fisherman, who happens to think that the watermen are not the problem.
    Yup, times they are a changin...
    I wonder if that's what we told the indians...
    Last edited by buckshotgumbo; 04-18-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  10. #98
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    As a commercial i like to keep my ear to the message boards. i refuse to stereotype everyone on tf just because a few get watermen and poachers mixed up. how many are anti-watermen and how many are anti-poacher? A net ban is anti-waterman. Fighting for enforced penalties is anti-poacher. Most people bring up good points on both sides and i wouldnt kick someone off my boat just cause they are a rec. i would kick them off if my head was in the cull box and i had to listen to their personal problems too, especially if it was a part of a bigger agenda.

  11. #99
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    Brandon,

    I feel weird writing to the moderator of a site via open forum, but I thought a private email may be inappropriate and it would be better if all members saw my post and your response. I wrote to you about a year ago via email to ask if it was appropriate to be on this site; I am commercial and recreational. I asked what groups TF supported. I was welcomed.
    Your forum intro page says, "I hope that you/anglers find Tidal Fish a great fishing site that provides a platform for anglers of all types to share reports, meet new friends and just enjoy a community of people who just plain old loves fishing."
    But then in a recent post you, the moderator wrote, "I am not sure what part of the fact that Tidal Fish is a RECREATIONAL FISHING SITE watermen are not getting, but I really do not know how else to say it."
    Are you requesting that commercial license holders dismiss themselves?
    I have read intelligent thoughts on TF and hoped to keep connected to those who were willing to see both sides of an argument.
    Should I dimiss myself from this site? I did not want to enter into a rec. vs. comm. thing. There mixed messages for posters and sponsors of this site. Will you clarify for posters and sponsors on your forum welcome page?

  12. #100
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    Chesbay2,

    I sure can't speak for Brandon, but, as a long time member and contributor to this board, I personally would not want anyone to dismiss themselves from this site just because they were commercial. That being said, if you are a commercial, and visit this site, be prepared to hear the rec point of view (sometimes well-reasoned, and other times just wacky). Contribute well-reasoned comments, but do not be an apologist for the commercial community (especially for the lawless element). Bring some thick skin, and don't be reluctant to present a point of view that may differ from other members. I am certainly willing to hear both sides of an argument, but I will admit a bias toward many of the rec positions, but by no means all of them.

    Bill

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