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It is scary. That region of Pakistan (i've been there) is remote, and very difficult, if not impossible, for the Pak authorities to police, much less govern. The people who live their, the Pashtuns, are violent, aggressive and have been fighting (amongst themselves or someone else) for centuries. It is all they know. Combine that with illiteracy and "leaders" who take advantage of that illiteracy by misinterpretations of religion, and you have some of the reasons why recruitment by Taliban/Al-Qaeda is effective there. Further that with US policy in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and occasional unintended casualties when missile strikes/military action is taken in villages, and this further fans the flames.

IMHO the war must be waged on two fronts--one the foreign fighters/al-Qaeda presence must be unmercifully crushed.

Second, and as important, the battle for the hearts and minds of the next generation must be one with efforts like the humanitarian relief after the earthquake, and more balanced policies in the mideast.

We can not win the hearts of al-Qaeda, too late for that, but if we lose on the second front, the "war on terror" will never end.
 

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Altho this link didn't work for me, the general point is consistent with everything I've read elsewhere. Osama is idolized and every time he publically taunts the US like he did recently he wins new recruits among the young muslims who see him as a hero.
I see him as a monster, and his image all over the media makes me want to puke, and that he still lives is a disgrace.
 

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Click on the second part of the link. But, you're right, nothing new there. Osama has been the worst thing for Muslims all over the world, and especially in America. The fact (and it is fact) that he is idolized in that area is further testament to the severe lack of education and the twisting of reality there.
 

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I always see these scenes and wonder why don't Russia and other arms dealing countries get any kind of penalty for selling so many weapons like AK47s and RPGs?
I mean it seems that these weapons are EVERYWHERE and theyre fueling fundementalism.

Just Venting after the video[excited]...
 

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[Q]NJ originally wrote:
IMHO the war must be waged on two fronts--one the foreign fighters/al-Qaeda presence must be unmercifully crushed.[/Q]NJ, you seem to have some insight when it comes to this part of the world and if not that, then you must have some military schooling or tactical training as to the mindset of these so called freedom fighters.

When you say "the foreign fighters/al-Qaeda presence must be unmercifully crushed". To what extent do you mean unmercifully.

Before you go on the defensive you need to understand there is a chance that your idea of unmerciful would be more docile then then mine. I'm just curious if there are others out there that know how to fight these people and what they only respond to.

I felt we should have never gone into any country after these terrorists. The way I feel we should have done it was to have hired and contracted death squads to go out and begin a systematic and methodical eradication of every member of each of those known terrorist that were still alive and of the family members of those we knew plotted the attack on the World Trade. And what I mean by systematic and methodical eradication of every member of their families is every man, woman, mother, father, son, daughter, grandmother, grandfather.

And even if that didn't work, just on principle, I wouldn't have stopped until the number of their people I killed would have equaled the numbers killed at the World Trade. If you understand these terrorist like I think you do, then you know I'm right.
 

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I'm with Fisk... He makes alot of very good sense. His plan is well thought out and very affective. Lets go to Saudi Arabia and wipe out all of the Bin Laden family. Better yet we could get them when the come to the White House for dinner.
 

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[Q]CSLUG originally wrote:
I'm with Fisk... He makes alot of very good sense. His plan is well thought out and very affective. Lets go to Saudi Arabia and wipe out all of the Bin Laden family. Better yet we could get them when the come to the White House for dinner.
[/Q]

That's the ticket! Lets expand on a great idea! Everyone who has ever been convicted of murder in this country.....the whole family gets wiped! But why limit it to just murder it could apply to any crime. It would stop terrorism and reduce the crime rate in our own country.
 

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Fisk, I do have some insight into the mindset--not that I know any "terrorists" or al-Qaeda (at least I think I don't), but I have spent quite a bit of time in that part of the world.

I'm not sure if I endorse what you are saying, but it has merit. Why? These people are stuck in a different time....a time of feudalism, tyranny, oligarchy--whatever--but a time when enemies were disposed of by destroying them completely--not just them, but as you say, their entire families and extended families--so that there would be no relative to "avenge" the loss. That's how it worked under the Moghuls, before them the Mongols, and before them as well. This is not religion--it is culture, which predates the religion.

IMHO those that have chosen to side with al-Qaeda or whatever the local name may be, are lost. They have decided to die for the cause and no amount of convincing, humanitarian aid, threat of violence, sanction, etc, etc is going to do a darn thing. They must be helped on their way to the other world. (Notice I didn't say Heavan).

Nancy, you can't apply this line of thought to the US because it is a totally different mindset--our country is a baby, we don't have centuries upon centuries of "tradition" to try and counter.

Where I may differ with you Fisk is on the next generation. At some point, we must win over the hearts and minds. Demeocracy wins if it gets a chance. Civil rights and liberties don't have to be "sold" --they just need to be presented--they sell themselves. We can't continue to kill generation after generation--or at least we shouldn't want to. Why is it that when you take someone from that part of the world out of that poisoned environment, and expose them to "western" culture, for the most part, they aren't keen on strapping on a suicide belt--much more concerned about their kids college fund, getting to work on time, and catching a ball game on the weekend (or going fishing). I get pretty upset when people assume that because someone's bloodlines go back to Arabia or the Subcontinent they must be a terrorist or at least a sympathizer---There are about a billion examples that prove that wrong.
 

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[Q]NJ originally wrote:
Nancy, you can't apply this line of thought to the US because it is a totally different mindset--our country is a baby, we don't have centuries upon centuries of "tradition" to try and counter.

Darn the luck! Yeah, but they are only humans. Couldn't we just try it? If it doesn't work you could just make some more.
 

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[Q]NJ originally wrote:
Nancy, you can't apply this line of thought to the US because it is a totally different mindset--our country is a baby, we don't have centuries upon centuries of "tradition" to try and counter.

Darn the luck! Yeah, but they are only humans. Couldn't we just try it? If it doesn't work you could just make some more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sadly, it it is some of the most beautifull land on the planet. Some of the most genuinely nice people you will ever meet are from that part of the world. I have never been in pakistan, but close to the border in Nepal and India.
 

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fishfool, you're right, it is an absolutely stunning part of the world. When I was in highschool and college, I spent some of my summers trekking in that area. It's known as the "rooftop of the world", where the Himalayas, the Karakorums, and the Hindukush mountain chains meet up. Haven't been up there since the early ninety's -- too risky for a guy with a blue passport.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I have a lifelong dream of taking a 650 cc. yamaha enduro (on/off road) motercycle up through the Karakorum highway, through the himalayas, and into south western china, following the old silk route. Then, there is the matter of mongolia.

That was all I kept thinking of when we invaded afganistan.
 

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I have been on that route as a teenager--in a jeep, but plenty of bikes around (usually 125 cc's or smaller there). We got all the way to the China border in xingiang, but a huge landslide prevented us from getting any farther. Boulders bigger than my house......
Unforgettable trip though.
 

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[Q]Nancy S Lewis originally wrote:
[Q]CSLUG originally wrote:
I'm with Fisk... He makes alot of very good sense. His plan is well thought out and very affective. Lets go to Saudi Arabia and wipe out all of the Bin Laden family. Better yet we could get them when the come to the White House for dinner.
[/Q]

That's the ticket! Lets expand on a great idea! Everyone who has ever been convicted of murder in this country.....the whole family gets wiped! But why limit it to just murder it could apply to any crime. It would stop terrorism and reduce the crime rate in our own country.
[/Q]Nancy, just what do know other then rattling pots and pans in the kitchen when it come to war and killing?
 

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[Q]NJ originally wrote:
Where I may differ with you Fisk is on the next generation. At some point, we must win over the hearts and minds. Demeocracy wins if it gets a chance. Civil rights and liberties don't have to be "sold" --they just need to be presented--they sell themselves. We can't continue to kill generation after generation--or at least we shouldn't want to. Why is it that when you take someone from that part of the world out of that poisoned environment, and expose them to "western" culture, for the most part, they aren't keen on strapping on a suicide belt--much more concerned about their kids college fund, getting to work on time, and catching a ball game on the weekend (or going fishing). I get pretty upset when people assume that because someone's bloodlines go back to Arabia or the Subcontinent they must be a terrorist or at least a sympathizer---There are about a billion examples that prove that wrong.
[/Q]I agree with you there. Somewhere along the line we have to stop and extend an Olive branch. We can't and I wouldn't advocate trying to kill each successive generation. However, you know as well as I do that these folks only understand and respect absolute ruthlessness and power. If we are to be safe in this country, and if we are going to halt these attacks on our soil, then we have to show these people that we can be horrifficly ruthless as they are. Each time they hurt us, we have to hurt them back only ten times harder and ten times more vicious. When they get the idea that we are willing and capable of playing by the rules they set down and they decide to stop these attacks, then we can show them that as ruthless an emeny that we can be, we can also be as equal a friend.

You are more then correct when you say their way of thinking isn't in the 21st century. They have lived in a fuedelistic society since the dawn of their recorded history. Because of this mindset we can't engage them the way we are doing. We are fighting a clean and moralistic war. To battle thier mindset fanatisism the way we are doing we will never beat them.

There is an old saying that there are times when you have to fight fire with fire when water won't work.
 

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Seems basic problem solving is a lost art.

They have a way of life that is a result of hundreds of years of traditions. Their problems with western society began when western society started screwing with them.

Anyone notice a trend?

If not screwing with them isn't possible, then we will have to kill them... but there we go with the screwing with them part again...

They can also be bought. The CIA did it to gain fighting forces for Asscrackistan .... but they switch sides when the next highest bidder comes along.

So it appears that wiping out a religion is our only recourse... anyone have a copy of mein kampf?
 

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[Q]Fiskamon originally wrote:

[/Q]Nancy, just what do know other then rattling pots and pans in the kitchen when it come to war and killing?
[/Q]

Would you like music with that dance or do you just dance to the same old tune? [wink]
 
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