[Giant Tuna]

Hi Guys:

I posted this on the Maryland Board, but thought it might be appropriate to also post here. While I live in Maryland now, as an "Old" graduate of Hampton High School I have fond memories of growing up in the area and still get back to see my brother who still lives there.

This post is a report from last week and reflects only my opinion of the state of the Striper fishery. I am sure some of you will disagree, but it becomes harder each year to ignore the decline in the numbers of big fish that winter near the mouth of the Bay.

Here is my original post.

Fished Thursday thru Saturday morning at the CBBT with a new crew. Had John (Cat Tales) with me for the first time. He was a great addition to my crew and I greatly enjoyed his company. We met up with Wild Bill and Simon on Simon's new 23' Regulator. It's always a good time with those guys.

We also met up with Bill's friend George and his buddy "New Guy"

Traveled 230 miles on Thursday and Friday looking for big ocean fish. Caught only 14 on Thursday with none over 36".

Here is John with a regular grade fish:

NOW FOR THE SAD PART.

It is very sad to see the decline in the numbers of fish, especially big fish, over the past few years. The hammering that they have been taking up and down the east coast from Commercial, Charter and Recreational fishermen alike, who all share the blame, has taken it's toll.

Yet we hear from the regulators that all is well and the population is healthy. These guys should all be fired for allowing the fishery to get to the brink of collapse.

I fish from Cape Cod to Carolina and what I personally see and hear from others, whose opinions I respect, leads me to the sad conclusion that all we have left is a fragment of the number of big fish we had only a few years ago.

I know others may disagree, but the evidence is to the contrary.

There are still small fish at the bridge and we released more than 200 (up to 29") during this trip, but the days of drifting for hours on one school of fish at the bridge are over.

I will keep on chasing them, but now I mostly release everything I catch.

I don't have time for another moratorium and am not sure what I will do when the fishery collapses totally. Hopefully, someone will do something to save the few breeders we have left.

Sorry to end this post on such a negative note, but IMHO that's where we are. Anyone who thinks otherwise is smoking something, blind or trying to cash in on the few remaining fish we have. There is still time to save the fishery from a total collapse, but I don't see it happening, given our past failures here and around the world in this regard.

GT
__________________

Parker 23 SE
Chesapeake Beach

 

[BGonsoulin]

Uh oh here we go again... Congrats on your catch by the way. You did better then I did. We didn't catch squat.

 

[Mike Avery]

I think your evidence of a decline is just as valid as the evidence from the fishery managers saying they are healthy....which is to say the evidence is ancillary using only small scraps of data to form overall conclusions. The truth is out there somewhere, I just don't think we know what it is yet.

 

[Mike-JacksonCreek]

I sure hope no one gets mad at me for writing this.

I agree with you on less big fish being caught, and its hard to get statistics to prove it. Except....what we can see from the commercial catch that VMRC watchs closely. In 2008 Va (and Md I think) the commercial tag system was based on numbers of tags allocated (using 14lbs as an avg fish). So if a commercial guy had (example) a 14000 lb allocation in 2007 he would get 1000 tags, and a mix of large and small tags to use. Many of the netters focused on larger fish and could exceed their quota. In 2008 the process changed to total poundage, and a one size for all tag. This is forcing netters to take all fish regardless of size and I believe its generally working....but it will take a few years to see the average size commercial fish caught decrease. VMRC's intent is to force taking of all sizes, not just large fish. For 2004-2008 average size increased every year. We see a similiar intended restriction on us by implenting the slot limits, and by reducing catch to 1 per person in mid Dec. Don't get upset here, read more.


But as all should know, commercial and recreational are allocated the same quota in Va Chesapeake Bay....about 1.6M lbs each. This info is easily read on VMRC's web site. Some say that the total actual take for recreational is less, or even larger than 1.6M, but how can one measure that. Its an interesting, and sad dilema.

Here is the point I am getting to:

There is a huge Va Beach ocean fishery thats growing in popularity fast, including me. Many or most charters from mid bay and south are in Va Beach now hammering the fishery. Plus hundreds and hundreds of recreational boats....me included fish there. How many fish are being caught, and they are not schoolies who are still up the bay. Lets take one example.....A charter that fishes 70 times in Dec and Jan (many days are 2x out), average party plus Capt/Mate may be 10, times 2 fish each, at avg 20 lbs/fish (thats at 30-45" ea). That comes to 20 fish x 20 lbs = 400bs per trip. That one boat could catch 1400 large fish weighing 28,000 lbs in the Dec-Jan timeframe. Now... 100 charter boats could catch 140,000 fish weighing 2.8M lbs. (Charter boats count against the recreational catch BTW). Now...how do we measure how may the recreational guys catch in the ocean, no clue, but lets guess its 1/3 of the charters catch, which would be 46,000 fish weighing 920,000 lbs. Total for charter and recreational in the ocean for Dec-Jan is 186,000 fish (avg 20 lbs) weighing 3.72M lbs.....Guys, thats more than the combined Va Chesapeake Bay/Potomac allowable catch of 3.2M lbs (allocated 1.6M for commercial (netters and hook-line), and 1.6M for recreational (charters and weekend guys).

The Va Coastal commercial quota is 184,000 lbs, see below. Far far less than whats being caught by us recreational guys.

My thought is:

-that we are catching far to many big fish in the ocean and that VMRC is not monitoring the catch and its impacts.
-these fish are the mature larger ones. BTW, did you know that these ocean fish are primarily the females, males generally stay in the bay.
-I called and asked VMRC, response is that they are aware of it.

So whats next???

Anyway, thats my thought.

BTW, I copied the below from VMRC web site under Commercial Fishing under Striped Bass. If one looks you can see the same numbers for the recreational quota

A. The commercial harvest quota for the Chesapeake area shall be determined annually by the Marine Resources Commission. The total allowable level of all commercial harvest of striped bass from the Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries and the Potomac River tributaries of Virginia for all open seasons and for all legal gear shall be 1,642,242 pounds of whole fish. At such time as the total commercial harvest of striped bass from the Chesapeake area is projected to reach 1,642,242 pounds, and announced as such, it shall be unlawful for any person to land or possess striped bass caught for commercial purposes from the Chesapeake area.

B. The commercial harvest quota for the coastal area of Virginia shall be determined annually by the Marine Resources Commission. The total allowable level of all commercial harvest of striped bass from the coastal area for all open seasons and for all legal gear shall be 184,853 pounds of whole fish. At such time as the total commercial harvest of striped bass from the coastal area is projected to reach 184,853 pounds, and announced as such, it shall be unlawful for any person to land or possess striped bass caught for commercial purposes from the coastal area.

 

[kapoc]

If you compare the few years you also have to look at the climate data as well last year they didn't migrate south so we got a lot of larger fish. This year they are screaming outta here like their on fire.

 

[Wild Bill]

If you compare the few years you also have to look at the climate data as well last year they didn't migrate south so we got a lot of larger fish. This year they are screaming outta here like their on fire.

There is most likely truth in what you stated.

It seems each year there are less big fish available all along the coast regardless of weather, however.

Many fishermen are reluctant to face the fact that too many of the large breeders are being killed by commercial, recreational and charter guys. We just do not want to face it. Hopefully someone does face it before things get really bad.

 

[Getaway]

And just how many of those 200 stripers that you caught and released died? A goodly portion to be sure! While catch & release may be considered a sport---200 fish put to the test of continuing to live is rediculous!

 

[mpwylie]

personally.....i find it more F*%ked when i see a boat coming from the bay and tributaries unloading limits of 18-22 inch fish than i do seeing boats unload limits of big fish from the ocean or eeling, we keep killing all these babies then we definitely aren't going to have **** for big fish and I kind of agree with the catch and release thing too. you put all those fish through all that strain and im sure 200 of them did not swim away once you put them back. If you want to fill your freezer with fish so bad that you are willing to keep every little rock you catch then take advantage of it when the spot and croaker are in.......2 horse croakers will give you probably the same amount of fish an 18 inch rock will

just my 2 cents

 

[ZAM]

you put all those fish through all that strain and im sure 200 of them did not swim away once you put them back.

I agree. Theres no doubt that C&Ring kills a lot of fish, most studies show it to be about 1 to 8 percent die from C&R fishing. If you C&R 200 stripers, you are most likely killing far more fish then someone who catches their limit and either quits or targets other species. The biggest problem is that its hard to regulate C&R fishing.

 

[Giant Tuna]

Getaway:

Each of us has a responsibility to answer to ourselves.

I catch and release thousands of Stripers each year on my boat. Unfortunately, some of them do not survive. I personally believe that the cold water survival rate of the fish we catch on Jigs is near 100%, but certainly cannot prove it and make that personal judgement based on the fact that almost all appear healthy, are lip hooked and quickly released.

I do find that I fish less each year in the upper Bay in the Summer when warm water release survival rates probably decrease significantly. But again, this is largely due to the fact that there are fewer fish in the Bay now than there were when the Moratorium ended which speaks to the point I am making that there are simply fewer of the larger fish everywhere.

I know for sure that with the fish caught and thrown into the box every year by Commercial, Charter and Recreational fishermen alike, the survival rate is 0%. I think a keeper fish would probably choose to be on my line given a choice.

Again, just my personal take on this.

GT

 

[Brian Hogge]

do ya'll want me to explain it again ??

 

[Giant Tuna]

Guys:

Here is a post that I copied from the Chesapeake Bay Board by Walleye Pete who posted his personal records.

You make your own decision whether his experiences are in line with your own.

GT

Walleye Pete
Dedicated TF Poster - Not a Tidal Fish Subscriber Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 414

Where'd they Go?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well......

I'll throw my .02 cent towel in the basket.....

I keep a detailed journal on all my trips. I've been guiding at the CBBT since 2000. Not really that long but a few seasons. For the last 5 seasons I've fished every possible day down there from around 20 November-Dec 31. I don't eel and I don't troll, never have but I might someday. Here is my stats on fish over 34 inches per day at the bridge since 2000.

In 2000 I did 8 trips at the CBBT and averaged 14.4 per trip of fish over 34" at the bridge. This doesn't count the big fish under birds off the bridge. Had quite a few of those.

2001-16.1 over 34" at the bridge.

2002-16.6 over 34" at the bridge.

2003-13.7

2004-11.4

2005-7.2

2006-7.4

2007-4.2

2008-2.4

2009-0.7

Overall numbers for me at the bridge are great......the moral of the story is where'd the numbers of big fish go?

Since 04 my average number of trips is around 26 trips from 15 Nov-31 Dec.

Fishing is still great and guiding is easy but just a few years ago 50 plus fish over 34" at the bridge and under birds combined was quite common jigging and surface plugging.

Had a trip in 03 with 537 fish and 90 over 34" in one day. Had 4 guys jigging without a break except when I moved back up for another drift. Fished from just before daylight till about 4pm. RUSS....remember!!!!Those days seem to be gone.

So....what Chuck says about big fish I agree with. I'm no expert or scientist about fish behavior I'm just reporting what I've seen over the last several years.

Good luck guys!!!!

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Last edited by Walleye Pete; 01-27-2009 at 12:52 PM.

 

[ZAM]

Walleye Pete only caught 0.7 fish over 34" this year per trip? or is that just at the bridge? ofcoarse they won't be at the exact same spot year after year. that has nothing to do with the overall population

 

[striper_on]

Hate to say it but bait and fish are offshore. Talk to people who got out dropping and pass large schools of bait and fish. Inshore waters are to cold. I caught my share of cows in Dec. @ the CBBT. I believe 10 to 12 releases and 3 weighs and a lot of 36" to 43" released to live another day.

 

[Brian Hogge]

Hate to say it but bait and fish are offshore. Talk to people who got out dropping and pass large schools of bait and fish. Inshore waters are to cold. I caught my share of cows in Dec. @ the CBBT. I believe 10 to 12 releases and 3 weighs and a lot of 36" to 43" released to live another day.

Right on Billy !!!!! It's the same answer in every post that is made complaining about lack of fish , how many times does it need to be asked :wacko:

 

[Wild Bill]

Hate to say it but bait and fish are offshore.

Saying the big fish are in great numbers way offshore to striper fishermen is like saying they are up in the clouds. Maybe they are but I have my doubts. During other cold winters, the big fish were available is large numbers below the NC line within the three mile line or just outside it a mile or two. While they are catching some now in NC, they do not seem to be plentiful.

Why can't some striper fishermen admit that there are fewer big fish each year?

 

[Getaway]

From the articles that I have read, some based upon scientific studies, the survival rate is absolutely not 100%. In the colder waters of winter, it is higher than during the early fail. Never-the-less, C & R kills a significant number of fish! There is no way that all of your C & R fish were lip hooked and none were deeper hooked. In addition, many of the fish released that live initially develop difficulties from bacteria in and around the area where they had been hooked. As a result, they die in serveral days to a few weeks later. As you said, personal opinion is just that.

Now, of course there are fewer larger fish now than when the fishery was reopened several years ago. They had been protected for several years and the schools grew proportionally.

As I see it, the biggest problem is with the taking/keeping of the very large cows as they are the ones that produce millions of eggs each and every year. This is where C & R should really be practiced.

 

[paxfish]

From the articles that I have read, some based upon scientific studies, the survival rate is absolutely not 100%. In the colder waters of winter, it is higher than during the early fail. Never-the-less, C & R kills a significant number of fish! There is no way that all of your C & R fish were lip hooked and none were deeper hooked. In addition, many of the fish released that live initially develop difficulties from bacteria in and around the area where they had been hooked. As a result, they die in serveral days to a few weeks later. As you said, personal opinion is just that.

Now, of course there are fewer larger fish now than when the fishery was reopened several years ago. They had been protected for several years and the schools grew proportionally.

As I see it, the biggest problem is with the taking/keeping of the very large cows as they are the ones that produce millions of eggs each and every year. This is where C & R should really be practiced.

Actually , in studies performed specifically to measure this, the striper mortality was near zero in temps below 60 degrees (with lures). Here's a description of the study:

Susquehanna Flats Catch-and-Release Fishery <o></o>
The rising popularity of catch-and-release fishing lead to the development of catch-and-release fishery in the upper portion of Chesapeake Bay known as the Susquehanna Flats. This activity developed despite regulations that prohibit catching or attempting to catch striped bass in areasdesignated as spawning rivers and areas during the period March 1 through May 31. A workgroup comprised of stakeholders was formed by the Fisheries Service to investigate what might be done to provide better recreational fishing opportunities in those areas without impacting the spawning stock or the reproductive ability of striped bass. The workgroup recommended that the Fisheries Service design and conduct a study that would determine the mortality of striped bass associated with catch-and-release fishing on the Susquehanna Flats. <o></o>
<o></o>
Over a five week period in April and May 1998, three 2-day trials were conducted on the Flats. Participating anglers were instructed to use single hooked artificial lures. Fish were marked as deep or shallow hooked, transported and held for three days as in the other striped bass studies.<o></o>
<o></o>
Two size groups of fish were sought for these experiments: less than 24 inches and greater than 24 inches. This size delineation was selected because mortality data for striped bass greater than 24 inches caught at low water temperatures in fresh water did not exist in the scientific literature.<o></o>
<o></o>
The results showed that water temperature greatly influenced release mortality of striped bass caught on the Flats. Mortality was 0.15% at temperatures of 57-59°F, 4.2% at 61-62°F and 16.4% at 64-71°F. There was no difference in mortality between large (>24") and small (<24") striped bass at these low temperatures. More than 95% of the fish caught on the flats in this study were small males.<o></o>
<o></o>
A legal catch-and-release season was implemented in 1999 and was closely monitored by the Fisheries Service. Water temperatures remained low and the size distribution of striped bass caught in the 1999 season was very similar to that seen during the study.

 

[ZAM]

Theres no doubt in my mind that the mortality is atleast 1%, I c&r all the time (LTJ) and theres more then 1% that are deep hooked, some are dead or bleeding badly when boated.
One thing you have to keep in mind about the mortality study that paxfish posted about is the fact that most of the Participants are people that want good results because they wanted the flats opened to fish c&r, so if they catch a fish thats deep hooked, and no ones around.....;-)

 

[BIG KIPPER]

Gentlemen, lets not forget the take of our northern bretheren. They keep fish too which, are primarily the ocean cows we take. It all adds up to alot of fish for dinner and less eggs (from the females) to give way to another generation of cows.