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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Somebody needs to ***** slap all of Capitol Hill. This morning on FTN I watched three grown men seriously discussing a stimulus package for Detroit auto makers. What a crock. The only stimulus package they need is a swift kick in the pants. Tax payer money ain't gonna fix what is wrong with the domestic auto industry.
 

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It's all bull****,the CEO's and Exec's who made big ass money
don't need a bail out,they need jail time.

:thumbup:
 

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It's all bull****,the CEO's and Exec's who made big ass money
don't need a bail out,they need jail time.

:thumbup:
Amen Better yet they should be made to pay back the loses for shipping all of the jobs overseas and south of the border
look @ the changes in NASCAR (for an example as most know now NASCARS are ont real cars anymore but it is the point)
1970's
Dodge Charger - Detroit made
Chevy Impala- Detroit made
Ford T-Bird or Tornio - Detroit made
AMC Matador - Detroit made
Now
Dodge Charger - Canada
Chevy Impala- Mexico
Ford Fusion - Canada/Mexico
Toyota Camry- Gulf Coast USA ?????
 

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$25 billion.... with a "B" is for paying the healthcare of retired workers.

Old autoworkers who are now sitting home watching Jerry Springer.... having spent a life getting paid 60 grand a year installing lug nuts are getting bailed out.

Classic.
 

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GM has a chance to turn things around. The Volt has a real shot at changing the game. For and Chrysler are effectively dead and should be burried rather than saved.
 

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$25 billion.... with a "B" is for paying the healthcare of retired workers.

Old autoworkers who are now sitting home watching Jerry Springer.... having spent a life getting paid 60 grand a year installing lug nuts are getting bailed out.


While there kids and grandkids are driving Toyotas Hondas and Volvos
 

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$25 billion.... with a "B" is for paying the healthcare of retired workers.

Old autoworkers who are now sitting home watching Jerry Springer.... having spent a life getting paid 60 grand a year installing lug nuts are getting bailed out.

Classic.
I agree, to a point. All the big three needed to do... drum roll here... was build a car that could compete with the Accord or Camry. Thats it. Insead of putting another useless SUV on the market, all they had to do was plop a med-small car with a 4 banger in it that would easily make it 150-200k without major probems. Thats all they needed to do. But instead, we got 350hp gunships with 6 rows of seats. How many models of SUVS do Honda & Toyota sell? 4. Each have a big one & a small one, thats it. All are built to last & are not the focus of the product line.

simple formula:
30-35 mpg
140-160 hp.
reliable

They could over come union issues by just building a simple, good car.
 

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The plan which I saw was not a bailout but was a low interest loan which is to be paid back. I did not support the loan to Chyrsler awhile back, however, it was paid back with interest the following year.
Toyota, Honda and Subaru are all American cars. They pay in American dollars to American workers and suppliers which are the backbone of the American economy. To not buy one of these fine cars because it is Japanese made is like quitting drinking Bud because it is now Belgian owned.
 

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Something For Nothing: Unions
by Thomas Sowell

Government is not the only institution that promises something for nothing. The decline of General Motors is just one consequence of the idea that labor unions can get their members something for nothing.

Workers themselves increasingly recognize the reality that there is no free lunch through unionization and are increasingly voting to be non-union.

But the word has yet to reach many among the intelligentsia, who still think of labor unions as institutions that benefit the working class.

You can always benefit particular segments of any society at the expense of some other segment but unions do not benefit even the working class as a whole -- just those who are current union members -- at the expense of other workers, current and future.

One reason that General Motors has been losing market share for years -- going from selling about half the cars in the country to selling about one quarter today -- is that its union contracts put them at a disadvantage compared to its Japanese competitors.

Even though Toyota has factories in the United States, the American employees in those factories vote to keep their jobs by staying non-union.

Toyota takes business away from unionized Detroit car makers, who are forced to lay off thousands of workers while Toyota is hiring additional workers.

There may not be any big difference in pay scales but unions can create higher production costs in many other ways. Fringe benefits are just one.

Work rules are another.

In some industries, employers pay their workers as much as, or more than, unionized workers receive for the same jobs, just in order to be free of red tape restrictions on how they can organize their business or discipline employees who aren't doing their jobs right.

Toyota, for example, takes fewer hours to produce cars with fewer defects than Detroit cars.

While unions are declining in the private sector, they are expanding among government employees. Government agencies are usually monopolies, so competition is no threat to their jobs.

Taxpayers get hit with the high cost of these monopolies. There is no such thing as something for nothing.

Teachers' unions fight desperately and ruthlessly against vouchers, because they must maintain a monopoly of school children under the compulsory attendance laws. Their members stand to lose jobs if forced to compete with private schools.

Monopoly is the key to unionized teachers' job security -- at the expense of children's education as well as the taxpayers' money.

Labor unions in the private sector have long been in the forefront of those pushing for higher minimum wage laws. Usually union members already make much more than minimum wages but they need to safeguard their jobs from others who could do the same work for less.

People on the inside looking out benefit at the expense of people on the outside looking in. Losers include not only less experienced and lower skilled workers, whose output would not cover the cost of the minimum wage, but also future workers who may find fewer job opportunities in the unionized industries.

Minimum wage laws are like protective tariffs insulating unionized workers from the competition of other workers. It is robbing a less affluent Peter to pay a more affluent Paul -- all the while using noble rhetoric that appeals to the uninformed and the unthinking, which includes many people with fancy degrees and even fancier illusions about their own higher sense of compassion.

Some people may believe that unions benefit their members at the expense of employers -- and that big corporations should be paying a "living wage."

That may be possible in the short run. But think about it: If unionized workers producing widgets get higher pay by reducing the rate of profit of widget manufacturers, do you think investors are going to continue to invest as much in the production of widgets when they can earn higher rates of return by investing elsewhere?

The rate of return on widgets cannot remain permanently below rates of returns in other industries. Widget prices will have to rise -- and that means lower sales and lower employment. There is no free lunch, no way to get something for nothing.





Thomas Sowell has published a large volume of writing. His dozen books, as well as numerous articles and essays, cover a wide range of topics, from classic economic theory to judicial activism, from civil rights to choosing the right college.


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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
While it is easy to point to the unions I was thinking more along the lines of the big 3's inability to connect with the wants and needs of the consumer. Clearly the UAW has contributed to the decline of the american auto industry the american auto industry is equally responsible due to it's inability to compete in the free market.
 

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It is breathtaking to look at the history of auto-industry intransigence when it comes to change that would obviously have benefited them. Do yourselves a favor, set aside 16-minutes this week and go to FRONTLINE to watch part 7 of the Heat documentary. Actually, watch part 5, too. It concerns emissions more than fuel efficiency, but the issues are basically the same for purposes of the auto industry. I am particularly fond of Amy Jaffe of the Baker Institute in Texas, someone who I have met in connection with other issues and who is about as blunt as can be on the issue of energy policy and national security. Parts of her interview appear at around 14:00 and 16:00 of the part 7 clip.

FRONTLINE: heat: watch the program: chapter 7 - two instructive lessons from the past | PBS
 

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While it is easy to point to the unions I was thinking more along the lines of the big 3's inability to connect with the wants and needs of the consumer. Clearly the UAW has contributed to the decline of the american auto industry the american auto industry is equally responsible due to it's inability to compete in the free market.
Yes, but with respect to the gas-guzzler craze, the American consumer is also to blame (What!? You're gonna tell me that I can't have my Yukon/Excursion/Hummer?? Or that I need to pay more for it!!? Get out of my face, big brother!:D Besides, with all of these credits cards and home equity lines of credit, I can afford the truck and the gas.). As with many issues that we now face, it's hard to find many clean hands.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes, but with respect to the gas-guzzler craze, the American consumer is also to blame (What!? You're gonna tell me that I can't have my Yukon/Excursion/Hummer?? Or that I need to pay more for it!!? Get out of my face, big brother!:D Besides, with all of these credits cards and home equity lines of credit, I can afford the truck and the gas.). As with many issues that we now face, it's hard to find many clean hands.
If their sins were those of meeting the demands of the market we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 

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If their sins were those of meeting the demands of the market we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Not sure I follow, but if your point is that the auto-industry has committed blunders irrespective of market demand, then I agree. Market demand for vehicles that would drive us into trouble (in a number of respects) is primarily our fault, not Detroit's.
 

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Yes, but with respect to the gas-guzzler craze, the American consumer is also to blame (What!? You're gonna tell me that I can't have my Yukon/Excursion/Hummer?? Or that I need to pay more for it!!? Get out of my face, big brother!:D Besides, with all of these credits cards and home equity lines of credit, I can afford the truck and the gas.). As with many issues that we now face, it's hard to find many clean hands.
People that want big vehicles and want to pay for them deserve them. You are talking about the same government that regulates how much water your toilet is allowed to flush. Give me a break. Tha fact is, poorer people that have old clunkers for cars that barely run, are dumping more pollution into the atmosphere than my Suburban. And what does the omnipotent government do about it? They exempt them. Yep, the old POS cars that the poor can afford are eventually exempted...I guess it's too hard to play the class warfare card on them too.

If I chooses to piss my money away on gas instead of something else because I want a safe ride for my children, not to mention soemthing to tow my boat (2-stroke BTW), I should be allowed to. i am not asking anyone to pay for it.

Any person that has lost their job because of the Global warming BS or over bloated unions, is a disgrace.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
I was referring to their surrender of market share in so many facets of the auto industry. Rather than adapt and overcome, they strove for mediocrity instead. They are losing market share simply because the Japanese, and the Koreans are doing it better. The only American car I would buy today would be a full sized pick up or possibly a sports car. Nearly every other segment of the industry has been quietly forfeited to foreign competition. The Koreans have the dirt cheap market nailed down, The Japanese have everything from hybrids to mid sized sedans in the bag, and the Europeans have a lock on style and comfort.

It wasn't any specific blunder that led to this, instead it was complacency.
 

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I was refering to their surrender of market share in so many facets of the auto industry. Rather than adapt and overcome, they strove for mediocrity instead. They are losing market share simply because the Japanese, and the Koreans are doing it better. The only american car I would buy today yould be a full sized pick up or possibly a sports car. Nearly every other segment of the industry has been quietly forfeited to foreign competition. The koreans have the dirt cheap market nailed down, The Japanese have everything from hybrids to midsized sedans in the bag, and the Europeans have a lock on style and comfort.

It wasn't any specific blunder that led to this, instead it was complacency.
I think that's a good observation.
 

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I was refering to their surrender of market share in so many facets of the auto industry. Rather than adapt and overcome, they strove for mediocrity instead. They are losing market share simply because the Japanese, and the Koreans are doing it better. The only american car I would buy today yould be a full sized pick up or possibly a sports car...
It wasn't any specific blunder that led to this, instead it was complacency.
Even sports cars... The American cars may look better, but thats about it. Take away the Vet & Viper, which are approaching super car status, the American sports cars are dated & not what the younger public wants.

Take Subaru. The WRX & the WRX STi, think Mustang GT & Mustang Cobra. They are powered by 4 cylinder, small displacement turbo engines. They will get up to 28 MPG, run 14.0 & 13.5 in 1/4 mile, are true all wheel drive, have 5 star crash ratings & the highest reliability rating in the "sports car" class. The STi is track ready, be it a 1/4, road course, mountinan climb, snow or dirt track. The WRX is close to track ready & cheaper. Easy for the kids to tune. With about 3 grand, both of these cars are 12 second beasts that will last well over 100k. These cars are easily tuned to 300 & 375 HP at the wheels, all 4 wheels at one time. Better yet, they come in as a Wagon...

The Mitsubisi Lancer Evolution. Another AWD turbo 4 banger that is just raw & ready to go. This car is a beast. A couple of grand & you have 400 HP at the wheels.

This is what the younger kids want. Safe, fast, reliable & can carry car seats.

GM is trying with the Chevy Cobalt SS, but to date the car has been a heap o ****. Dodge tried with the Neon SRT4... a huge peice of ****. Again, the American cars missed the key market.
 

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People that want big vehicles and want to pay for them deserve them. You are talking about the same government that regulates how much water your toilet is allowed to flush. Give me a break. Tha fact is, poorer people that have old clunkers for cars that barely run, are dumping more pollution into the atmosphere than my Suburban. And what does the omnipotent government do about it? They exempt them. Yep, the old POS cars that the poor can afford are eventually exempted...I guess it's too hard to play the class warfare card on them too.

If I chooses to piss my money away on gas instead of something else because I want a safe ride for my children, not to mention soemthing to tow my boat (2-stroke BTW), I should be allowed to. i am not asking anyone to pay for it.

Any person that has lost their job because of the Global warming BS or over bloated unions, is a disgrace.
You give us a break. You are, indeed, asking all of us to pay for it. You completely ignore that the two examples that you cite concern the usage of a finite yet critical resource (petrol and water). Left to the "free market" (whatever that is), we have proven over and over again that we will each use as much as we can without any regard to whether enough will remain for others or even for ourselves in the future. With virtually every critical resource on this planet, we are running dangerously low. Yet, we should simply allow folks to use as much of these resources as they please, with no plan to manage?

It's interesting how many folks, under some scare-tactic socialist mantra, toss away millennia of history in favor of an everyone-for-themselves mentality over cooperation and the structured civilization that has brought our species this far.
 
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