Tidal Fish Forum banner
1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,432 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If a democracy means "The Majority Rules", should we intervene when the majority of citizens in a country believe a man who converts from Islam to Christianity should be executed?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,428 Posts
That's why the founders established a representative republic
and never imagined anything like a pure demacracy.
(Mobocracy)

Bert
 

·
Tidal Fish Subscriber - I'm cool!
Joined
·
14,062 Posts
[q]"I wondered at first whether the women were exaggerating."

The writer is Pamela Bone, a noted Australian journalist and self-described "left-leaning, feminist, agnostic, environmentalist internationalist." She is writing about a group of female Iraqi emigrees whom she met in Melbourne in November 2000.

"They told me that in Iraq, the country they had fled, women were beheaded with swords and their heads nailed to the front doors of their houses, as a lesson to other women. The executed women had been dishonoring their country with their sexual crimes, and this behavior could not be tolerated, the then-Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein, had said on national television. More than 200 women had been executed in this manner in the previous three weeks…. Because the claims seemed so extreme, I checked Amnesty International's country report…. Some of the women's 'sexual crimes' were having been raped by one of Saddam's sons. One of the women executed was a doctor who had complained of corruption in the government health department."

[/q]
 

·
Tidal Fish Subscriber - I'm cool!
Joined
·
14,062 Posts
Most Famous Yale Freshman Advocated For Execution of Christian Missionaries in 2001

Asked for comment, Yale Administrators said only, "Yes, we know all that. It was at the top of his application form. We awarded him six points for that."

In late summer of 2001, as Al-Qaeda was planning their murderous venture, the Taliban was spinning their "trial" of eight foreign aid workers, including two Americans, and sixteen Afghan Christians whom they accused of secretly proselytizing—and who, it emerged, faced the death penalty.

How could the Taliban possibly justify such a barbaric practice? They didn’t really even try. According to Canadian Channel CTV, "Their priority was to propagate Christianity which they were not supposed to do here," as Sayed Rehmatullah Hashmi, an aide to the Taliban's foreign minister, told reporters.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! That name sounds familiar. Because the name of Yale’s prized "freshman" and former Taliban ambassador, Sayed Rahmatullah Hashemi, is a pretty close match.

But it couldn’t be the same guy. No, Yale’s tame Talib is a "moderate", a man who regrets the harsh things he’s said in his past (if not the ideology he embraced), a poor little lamb who "escaped the wreckage of Afghanistan", an earnest family man starting his life over. Yale’s Hashemi was no blustering theocrat, but according to Yale’s then-Dean of Admissions, "a person to be reckoned with and who could educate us about the world.'' Besides, the spelling is a little different, right? It could be some other Taliban fellow, right?

Yeah, it's the same guy all right. He also spun for Mullah Omar and Osama bin Ladin... on September 12, 2001.

Now, what sort of person do you get to do that sort of PR work the day after your regime is proven complicit in the deaths of 2800 innocent civilians? A "moderate" who's basically fed-up with the regime, or a true believer who'll say anything for a cause he believes in?

Why doesn't Yale admit James Byrd's killers in a special program, perhaps a correspondence program? If there's no amount of evil they can't forgive (or embrace), why not vicious race-murderers, too? Surely they can change the hearts of these three killers with their superior progressive ideals.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/164848.php
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,995 Posts
Hey Fritz.... Check this out....I can do it too!!!!

[q]Marmots are among the most abundant order of animals on earth-- rodents. They are the largest member of the ground squirrel family (see taxonomy), and are very adaptive, as witnessed in their diversity in social behavior, and mating habits. There are currently 14 species of marmots in the world; there are eight in the "old world" and six in the "new world."

Yellow-bellied marmots are very easy to recognize; they have the look and build of a prairie dog, and usually have a thick coat of coarse fur, which can be varying shades of brown. They have either yellow or while streaks on their backs and faces. They have claws, as they are fossorial, and require burrows that they usually dig themselves. And as is common to all rodents, they have two prominent incisors, which continually grow. (Please see link to pictures of other marmots for comparison) These species share similar physical features (especially body structure and coloration) as not much has changed due to structural load since they shared a common ancestor. The species itself is a fairly ancient one, as the first known member of species of Marmota existed nearly 9.5 million years ago (Armitage 2001).

Their geographic location and environmental surroundings have shaped the seasonal behavioral patterns of marmots to some degree. After the regression of glaciers, marmots tended to live in mountainous zones, where they could forage for grasses and dig burrows well. Hibernation became an adaptation to low amounts of food and cold temperatures during part of the year. Another testament to the rigors of the environment is the selection pressure towards large body size, large home ranges-- in which adequate food resources can be found, and evidence of reproductive skipping in females. They require the large size because of the harsh environment, which enables them to lose heat less rapidly. Furthermore, being larger they have an active metabolism and digest fats fairly rapidly. It is interesting that here is a case of an anatomical or physiological factor affecting social behavior. Armitage notes that large body size predisposes marmots to mature slower such that they need to be around for at least a year. In order for this work, it is helpful that they retain some level of sociality so they can remain in groups, and reap the benefits of protection that will impact their survival. (Armitage 2001).

The selection pressures marmots faced eons ago have shaped it as a group, so that if we look at some behavior or trait currently and it doesn't make sense to us, perhaps the answer can be seen in light of its evolutionary history connections to how genotypic and environmental, phylogenetic, structural load allow for behavioral responses.

Considerations of Socioecology

In closing, the study of socioecology is a great tool for the analysis of the development of social behavior, but it is still a difficult task to parcel out the factors relating from ultimate and proximate causation, which is presented in the following conundrum, elegantly and eloquently expressed by David Barash.

"Regardless of the general patterns that characterize marmot sociobiology, and despite the seductiveness of working them out, it is also important to recognize that the pattern of social behavior within any colony or local population of marmots is doubtless modulated by such proximate factors as immediate habitat physiognomy, local kinship situations, age and sex composition at any given time, the day-to-day experiences of colony residents with predators, climate and other varying factors, the individual behavior profiles of residents during any given year, the number of such individuals and so forth. On the other hand, regardless, of such proximate factors and their undoubted significance, we should also not miss the forest for the trees: there are patterns, both within and between species, and these patterns tell us something about predictability, order, and the meaning in the life of marmots-and in life itself" (Barash 1989).

The yellow-bellied marmot is unusual compared with other marmots because of its low reproductive skew and polygynous nature. It has been established that social species tend to have reproductive skew. This is because competition with in the group for resources or mating, conflict with the social, cooperative benefits. Depending on the force of some of these factors, the resultant skew can be present in multiple degrees. Complete skew leads to monogamy, while little skew leads to polygamy. Two theories that can be used to evaluate the differences between the yellow-bellied marmot and other marmots (especially the alpine marmot) in reproductive skew are the Optimal Skew Hypothesis (OSH) and the Limited Control Hypothesis (LCH) (Allaine 2000). The Optimal Control Hypothesis states that a dominant individual can control the reproduction of subordinates in order to achieve the highest benefit for itself (Allaine 2000). The subordinates can leave in order to maximize their fitness. It is assumed that where the group arrangement exists that it is beneficial for the dominant individual, but that the subordinates get enough out of the relationship that they don not leave. This occurs if the dominant individual concedes reproduction to some extent. The LCH, in contrast states that the dominant individual cannot control the subordinates, and the outcome is determined by the relative strengths of the individuals involved (Allaine 2000).

Significance of social behavior

Yellow-bellied marmots are the only marmots with an intermediate level of sociality. While they are socially polygynous, a large percentage of males are socially monogamous. Allaine noticed that there was little difference between the yellow-bellied marmot and other marmot types in terms of the make up of social groups, so the differences could lie primarily in the mating systems. Allaine postulated that the two species differed in the ability of the dominant females to control subordinate reproduction, and also thought that the relatedness between the female group members, the remaining of individuals in the group, and the benefit of group bonding were all different (Allaine 2000).
In Allaine's analysis of female dominance, she found that the LCH was valid, as it appeared through their freedom of lifestyle (ability to gain resources) that the subordinate females had that the dominant female could not control the others. Allaine found the difference in skew between the alpine marmot and the yellow-bellied marmot was due in some amount to a difference in the relatedness of individuals within groups. From further observation, she postulated that while some marmots could fully dominate others the yellow-bellied marmots allow their daughters reproduction (Allaine 2000). From an analysis of dispersal she decided that significant differences could not be found. In order to account for the difference in reproductive suppression between the two different species, Allaine came up with explanations for her observations. She stated that female alpine marmots suppress other marmots, even to the point of departure because they can afford for the others to leave, since they don't perform crucial young care during hibernation (Allaine 2000). She adds that the cost of conceding reproduction to lower females is high in monogamous species, but it is not the case for the yellow-bellied marmot (Allaine 2000). Her reasoning for this is that dominant females probably do have control over their subordinates, and since the offspring have an asymmetrical relationship and the environmental constraints are low, they can afford to cede a little reproductive rights to other females to provide incentive for them to remain in the harem (staying incentive

Mating behavior

Marmots primarily mate underground, though some above ground copulatory behavior has been observed. Males mate with whichever of his females is in heat at the time, though all are in heat at around same time in late spring each year for a two week period after they emerge form hibernation (Barash 1989).

You may be surprised to know that there is not an elaorate courtsihp display. The males basically sniffs and chases the remale, and is she's reproductively responsive, she's let him mount. If she's already pregnant or not in heat, however, she will be very aggressive (her default state) and a fight could ensue (Barash 1989).

You might think that since this is a male's one chance to reproduce, he would do an elaborate courtship display to get a female to mate with him, like the kob. However, this is quite a different scenario he already has got ha group of females with whom he has somewhat of a bond, and being in a localized area where females outnumber males, the females don't have much choice. Furthermore, yellow-bellied marmots are not that social a species, so that extent of behavior should not be as readily expected. During the mating season, males gallivant, searching for other females to mate with-transients or neighboring harem females, and guard against being cuckolded themselves (Barash 1989).

[/q]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,432 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
This might help you, Fritz:

The Difference Between ****** and Shinola:
Clearly Defined, Once and For All
SHINOLA ******
Shoe polish. Bodily waste.
No longer manufactured. Manufactured by every animal on earth at least once a day.
Comes in a can. Doesn't come in a can but you can put it there.
Pleasant, fruity odor Unpleasant, poop-like odor
People don't care if you have Shinola on your shoes. Most people admire shiny shoes. People are offended and make funny faces when you have ****** on your shoes.
Contributed to the end of the Cold War Helped spread the Black Plague
Repels aliens. Repels aliens.
If you hold a piece of Shinola in your hand and turn around four times chanting, "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!" you will be transported to a magical paradise where all the boys look like Weezer and cream cheese has no calories. If you hold a piece of ****** in your hand and turn around four times chanting, "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!" your hand will get dirty.
Emily Dickinson wrote poems glorifying Shinola. Jonathan Swift wrote poems glorifying ******.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

·
Tidal Fish Subscriber - I'm cool!
Joined
·
14,062 Posts
Well George, since your opinion, expressed many times, is that no number of foreigers lives are worth ****** (You have clearly stated many times you don't care a bit about the 500,000 or so that Saddam has killed), I'm curious why you're so interested in the fate of this one. I'm curious as to what your proposed remedy is?

1) Go back in time, don't invade Afghanistan, and let the Taliban kill this guy instead (and launch attacks against the US), as well as a much larger number of Afghani's (they had a "fondness" for defenseless women").

or

2) Totally eliminate the noxious muslims in Afghanistan, using WMD and repopulate the country with out of work watermen from the Chesapeake Bay due to crappy fishing.

3) Overwhelm Afghanistan with troops, enforce martial law for ever, not attempt to hand back sovereingty, and incorporate it as a colony?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,995 Posts
[Q]Nancy S Lewis originally wrote:
Ok slug, they wear fur coats and have yellow streaks. Are you trying to say that marmots are repooplicans?
[/Q]

Why no Nancy I didn't mean to imply the poor marmot had anything to do with this thread... anymore then Flitzers cut and pastes do. Here another you may find quite long and boring with absolutely no bearing on the subject....

[q]The Coffee Warbler
by Thomas Dietsch (August 2004)

Tennessee Warbler.
© Bob Zaremba
Despite its misleading name, the Tennessee warbler neither breeds nor over-winters in the state of Tennessee. This species got its name when the first specimen collected had the misfortune of being shot by Alexander Wilson in 1832. This unlucky individual happened to be passing through Tennessee near the Cumberland River in the middle of its long migration between the Canadian boreal forest and the tropical forests of Mexico and Central America. A more apt name for this species might be the "Coffee Warbler" since it often over-winters in coffee plantations in Latin America. Whatever its name, it distinguishes itself through its behavioral versatility and unique specializations.

Home in the Boreal Forest

Even after Wilson described the Tennessee warbler, its breeding habits remained a mystery until 1901, when the first nests were discovered in Canada. We now know their breeding range stretches across the boreal forests of Canada from British Colombia to Quebec and New Brunswick. When nesting, this warbler ventures into the United States only in the forests of the upper Midwest (Minnesota and Michigan) and the northernmost parts of the Northeast (Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, and the Adirondacks of New York). Throughout its breeding range, this warbler is associated with boreal forests, usually coniferous but often mixed, ranging in age from early successional to mature.

Tennessee Warbler.
© Bob Zaremba
Populations of this species can fluctuate dramatically from year to year, reaching their highest densities -(up to 610 pairs per square kilometer)- in forests with outbreaks of the spruce budworm. Local population increases seem to be the result of abundant food as new birds are attracted to the area. Even with the additional birds, budworm outbreaks allow breeding warblers to increase their clutch size (the number of eggs per nesting attempt). Clutch size for Tennessee warblers varies from three to eight eggs. The incubation period ranges from seven to 12 days and time to fledging after hatching is 11 to 12 days. This ground-nesting species commonly conceals its nests in mossy hummocks at the base of small shrubs and trees, or in upturned stumps. It rarely attempts a second nest in a season, but will double brood after losing a nest to predators.

Like most long-distance migratory songbirds, the Tennessee warbler spends a relatively short proportion of the year in the North. After arriving on the breeding grounds in late May to mid-June, it usually completes breeding and is migrating by late August.

On the Move

Tennessee Warbler foraging.
© Bob Zaremba
For post-breeding birds, the arrival of cold weather can be unpredictable; this prompts early migration. Some adult Tennessee warblers appear south of the breeding grounds as early as mid-July. This long-distance traveler is restless enough to regularly leave the breeding grounds before completing molt, showing an exceptional tendency to molt and migrate simultaneously. This is unusual, especially for warblers, as most birds replace worn feathers in the late summer before departing on migration. Growing new feathers for molt requires substantial food energy, as does migration, so most bird species separate these activities temporally. Generally, fall migration for Tennessee warblers is protracted with the peak of migration in August. Adults usually leave first, followed by first-year birds, which sometimes depart as late as October.

Tennessee warblers join mixed-species flocks during migration, primarily foraging in woody habitats. The general migration route is back and forth across the central and eastern United States from the Mississippi Valley to the Atlantic coast. They fly across the Gulf of Mexico between the Yucatan peninsula and the southern United States coastline from Florida to Texas. On the southward journey, Tennessee warblers move more regularly to the western side of this track than during the northward trek, when birds are more common east of the Appalachians. Throughout the migration route, abundances can be highly variable from year to year.

The spring migration is more concentrated in time than the fall migration, with birds found more frequently in single-species flocks. In Panama, migration starts by late March with birds moving through Costa Rica and Mexico in April and early May. Tennessee Warblers generally cross the Gulf of Mexico in early May, making landfall between Alabama and Texas. Birds return to their breeding grounds in Canada on or about the third week of May with stragglers still arriving in early June.

At Home in the Tropics

After crossing the Gulf of Mexico, Tennessee Warblers spread out across southern Mexico and Central America with some birds reaching as far south as northern South America, especially Colombia. During the winter months, this species is found in a wide range of tropical forest habitats, but is particularly well-known for a strong affinity to coffee-growing areas. According to pioneer Neotropical ornithologist Alexander Skutch, "Coffee Warbler" might be a more appropriate name than Tennessee warbler.

Inga flowers.
© C.E. Hughes
This species forms large mixed-species flocks and is very abundant in coffee plantations grown with an overstory of shade trees, especially those from the abundant tree genus Inga. When the Inga is in bloom, Tennessee warblers can be the most abundant bird found in coffee habitats. The nectar from Inga flowers provides an important food resource during the winter dry season throughout Latin America.

Tennessee warblers have exhibited a wide range of social behaviors on their non-breeding grounds, from defending individual flowering trees to highly gregarious mixed-species flocks with lots of conspecifics. This behavioral flexibility is not well understood but may be linked to the dependability of food resources. For example, flowering in individual Inga trees is fairly short-lived, consequently each Inga species has a distinctive flowering pattern across the landscape. Gregarious foraging behavior may help Tennessee Warblers track and exploit these flowering events.

Food habits and Foraging behavior

As mentioned previously, the Tennessee warbler is a spruce budworm specialist on its breeding grounds. During the breeding season, this bird relies almost exclusively on arthropods (insects and spiders), especially (butterfly and moth larvae (including the spruce budworm), which can account for as much as 69 percent of the adult diet and more than 90 percent of food brought to nestlings. This is in marked contrast to food habits during migration and the non-breeding season.

Tennessee Warbler eating fruit.
© Bob Zaremba
During migration, Tennessee warblers make extensive use of energy-rich fruit resources as well as insects. This small warbler is limited in the size of fruit it can fit into its tiny bill. Consequently, they are more abundant in second-growth and open forests, which generally have trees and vines with small bird-dispersed fruit. Using a wide range of food resources on its non-breeding grounds, this warbler was described as the species with the most flexible diet in Monteverde, Costa Rica.

As with most warblers, arthropods continue to be a substantial component of the winter diet, but Tennessee Warblers also readily switch to fruit and flower nectar. It is thought that this dietary shift is triggered by low availability of arthropods during the dry season that extends throughout most of its wintering range. This may allow the Tennessee Warbler to use a wider range of woody habitats during the non-breeding season, including many human-managed ecosystems. In widespread coffee-growing areas, Inga flowers provide a critical resource, however flowers from other shade trees can also be important (including Erythrina and Grevillea).

Although not normally incorporated in large-scale coffee farming, native shade trees could provide additional food resources for migratory birds. The Tennessee Warbler has been observed eating nectar from a diversity of tree and vine species in undisturbed or second-growth tropical forests. In fact, for some nectar sources, such as the vine Combretum fructicosum, Tennessee Warblers shift from their gregarious flocking behavior to defending small feeding territories. The mechanisms behind such behavioral shifts and diet choices are still not well understood, but this warbler may be a good study species for uncovering the secrets of behavioral flexibility in migratory songbirds.

Conservation Status

Tennessee Warbler bathing.
© Bob Zaremba
Tennessee warbler populations seem to be healthy throughout their range. Their range does not significantly overlap the Brown-headed Cowbird's, so nest parasitism is rare. Possible threats to this species include use of pesticides, especially spraying to control spruce budworm outbreaks, collisions with human structures during migration, and habitat degradation, in particular, intensification of coffee management practices on the non-breeding grounds. Encouraging greater use of a diversity of native shade trees on coffee farms may be of particular benefit for this species.
[/q]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,432 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
[Q]Fritzer originally wrote:
Well George, since your opinion, expressed many times, is that no number of foreigers lives are worth ******
[/Q]You are a liar. What I HAVE stated is that it's not worth Americans dying for.
 

·
Tidal Fish Subscriber - I'm cool!
Joined
·
14,062 Posts
Then you should send a very stern note to Afghanistan. I'm sure they'll listen...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
[Q]CSLUG originally wrote:
[Q]Nancy S Lewis originally wrote:
Ok slug, they wear fur coats and have yellow streaks. Are you trying to say that marmots are repooplicans?
[/Q]

Why no Nancy I didn't mean to imply the poor marmot had anything to do with this thread... anymore then Flitzers cut and pastes do. Here another you may find quite long and boring with absolutely no bearing on the subject....

Just checking! [wink]

Well, give the man credit they may be long and boring but still cheaper than melatonin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,432 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So, Fritz....just so I'm clear...In the brand of Democracy that we're exporting, if they decide that they want to hang people just because they're Christians, you're alright with that, right?
 

·
Tidal Fish Subscriber - I'm cool!
Joined
·
14,062 Posts
LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

They aren't trying him because he is a christian, they're trying him because he converted from Islam to Christianity. The Muslim religion for the most part, promulgates toleration for Christians and Jews in their society, in a restricted sense (look up dhimmitude). However, under Muslim Law (Sharia), once a Muslim, always a muslim, and it is illegal, under pain of death to convert to another religion.

Do I approve? No, of course not. The administration is trying to find a way to do something about it without seeming like they exert excessive control over the elected government in Afghanistan, who, ultimately will have to rule the country, and have a fairly difficult job in reconciling religious conservatives with the rest of the country. Condi Rice talked to the Premier of Afghanistan today, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188936,00.html , and President Bush has expressed his displeasure.

Now, I asked before; what is your proposed solution (I'm not expecting one, you've never said anything positive on this board that I can remember).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,432 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
[Q]Fritzer originally wrote:
you've never said anything positive on this board that I can remember).
[/Q]A vicious jab from Mr. Sunshine himself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,184 Posts
[Q]captaingeorge originally wrote:
If a democracy means "The Majority Rules", should we intervene when the majority of citizens in a country believe a man who converts from Islam to Christianity should be executed?
[
Should we have intervened when a judge decided to starve a woman to death? Possibly a majority of citizens thought that was a cruel way to kill someone and wrong, me included.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,995 Posts
[Q]Capt Frank originally wrote:
[Q]captaingeorge originally wrote:
If a democracy means "The Majority Rules", should we intervene when the majority of citizens in a country believe a man who converts from Islam to Christianity should be executed?
[
Should we have intervened when a judge decided to starve a woman to death? Possibly a majority of citizens thought that was a cruel way to kill someone and wrong, me included.
[/Q]

Frank is a democracy NIMBY.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top