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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The White House and leading congressional Democrats have reached an agreement on legislation to provide a stopgap bailout to U.S. automakers, according to officials from the administration and Congress.

The next steps were not clear early Wednesday afternoon. A House vote could take place later Wednesday. But strong Republican opposition in the Senate made prospects there less certain.

The bill could provide the $14 billion that General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler LLC need to avoid filing for bankruptcy, allowing them to continue operations through the end of March.
Bail 'em out or let 'em sink?
 

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let them sink... Chapter 11 and restructure. Capitalism doesnt work without the risk of failure.

GM and toyota have been selling the same amount of vehicles world wide... Why isnt gm profitable? (management and UAW!!!)
 

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Let them sink as Greg said, then restructure the union deal...$1500 out of every car to legacy costs to support the ridiculous deal, and a huge amount of other problems contributing to the unbelievable income/benefit packages it is a model for failure now or in the future. The bailout won't solve that, it will just delay the inevitable...they won't go anywhere if they file bankruptcy, they will just be able to restructure to a more modern and cost effective business model conducive to long term stability and profitability...but what the hell do I know...

talking about this...Man, is it winter already?
 

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Fire every last CEO but bail out the working class guy.Way too many "trickle down" jobs are at stake if Detroit closes up.Restuarants/bars/travel agents/real estate/car salemen/etc all depend on the big three.

One idea I heard was to put an import duty (tax) on all foreign cars/trucks coming into our country.Makes some sense- might help keep folks here working.Alot of countries charge a duty to the USA - time to even up the playing field.
 

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EVERYONE THIS JUST IN lets all rest our spichters they are going to appoint a CAR CZAR whew thank God now I can go buy my All American made useful economy car and sleep well as my bank accounts grows like Ron Jermey in the 70's That was a close one I mean look how well the CZAR program has work so far
I mean the Drug Czar great job I mean do any of you see illegal drugs and addicts on the street any more I mean wow it is so safe in America's big city because of the fear of the Drug Czar coming. Oh and for the record the orginal Czar in Russia didn't do too good either''
In the United States the title "czar" is a slang term for certain high-level civil servants, such as the "drug czar" for the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, "terrorism czar" for a Presidential advisor on terrorism policy, "cybersecurity czar" for the highest-ranking Department of Homeland Security official on computer security and information security policy, and "war czar" to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I mean look at this stellar track record.
I wonder it the postion of BS dector Czar is still open I can do it from home (and also the office of blowing smoke up my arse)
 

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Delaying the inevitable. All it is doing. The UAW will suck the carmakers dry until they're all out of work. Sounds like a great deal to me.
 

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Restucture the UAW,that is only one of many problems.How about a layed off UAW worker recieving 95% of their pay as part of a labor agreement.Maybe GM can sell the gov. some of those over priced products,You know what I mean a pack of paper $9000 or a roll of tp $6000.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Let's start with the "Sphincter Czar"

EVERYONE THIS JUST IN lets all rest our spichters they are going to appoint a CAR CZAR whew thank God now I can go buy my All American made useful economy car and sleep well as my bank accounts grows like Ron Jermey in the 70's That was a close one I mean look how well the CZAR program has work so far
I mean the Drug Czar great job I mean do any of you see illegal drugs and addicts on the street any more I mean wow it is so safe in America's big city because of the fear of the Drug Czar coming. Oh and for the record the orginal Czar in Russia didn't do too good either''
In the United States the title "czar" is a slang term for certain high-level civil servants, such as the "drug czar" for the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, "terrorism czar" for a Presidential advisor on terrorism policy, "cybersecurity czar" for the highest-ranking Department of Homeland Security official on computer security and information security policy, and "war czar" to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I mean look at this stellar track record.
I wonder it the postion of BS dector Czar is still open I can do it from home (and also the office of blowing smoke up my arse)
This Czar's only doody will be to make sure everyone can spell "sphincter". I nominate former FEMA director Micheal Brown because of his proven track record following hurricane Katrina. "Brownie, you're doin' one hell of a job." as GWB exclaimed before everyone figured things out.
 

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Hometown Boy

I'm torn. I grew up in Detroit and most of my immediate family is still there. Failure of the big 3 will devistate that area. Things are already difficult there.

However, I'm not a fan of a bailout. Business is business. There's no better country for a well run business to prosper. It should not be the tax payers responsibility to provide a safety net.

UAW and Executives have been too greedy for too long. Time to pay the piper.

Give all the bailout money to the tax payers to feed the economy and generate new jobs.:thumbup:
 

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The problem is that economists from many different backgrounds are saying that GM, in particular, could not survive Ch. 11 and would immediately go into Ch.7. So they would be gone and the folks would be out of work...600,000 - 1,300,000 within a month, depending on who you believe. If it were just the auto execs saying this, I would be very skeptical, but it's not. It's coming from people who normally detest bailouts. They could be wrong, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to begin to know, but I'm not sure that I'm willing to gamble on a more severe depression. I have to say that I'm torn on this issue, though.

I am ticked at the big 3 for the reasons already mentioned. I am ticked at the UAW. But we are all to blame, to some extent. Virtually everyone on this board benefited in one form or another from very cheap credit and consuming in a manner that has ignored about a dozen laws of nature. Bailouts are simply part of the bill coming due, it seems (yes, we'll all be paying for it).
 

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I have little sympathy for the big 3.

Don’t you find it interesting that the plants down south (Honda, Toyota, Kia and Hyundai) are not standing line with their hands out? Between them they make 54% of the automobiles sold in the US and employ 1/3 of the county’s auto workers. Why are they not standing in line looking for handouts?

If the big 3 not been so greedy and focused on long term viability instead of exploiting the demand for the highly profitable gas guzzlers they wouldn't be in this situation.
 

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Seahunter - exactly. Why is it that the Big 3 claimed to have needed to move production out of the country to be profitable while Honda, Toyota and Nissan were moving plants into the USA????? It's because every US car costs you 3-4k in benefits for union workers before you start paying for the vehicle. I bought Chevy and Ford my entire life... until I truly understood that the foreign competition was actually doing more for American workers and our economy than the Big 3. My Honda Ridgeline is an incredibly well engineered vehicle that I expect to get 200k min out of while and my F150 with 115k is still in the shop with tranny issues. Maybe we're all better off if the foreign competition expands in the country and hire the big 3 workers. Maybe it's time to make the shift to a totally new way of thinking and just maybe a new American car company or three will spring up and make vehicles that woo everyone back.
 

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New Contract Protects UAW Jobs - UAW/GM Contract 2007

New Contract Protects UAW Jobs
It took a two-day strike, extraordinary solidarity and more than two months of tough bargaining for 73,000 UAW members at General Motors to bring home a new contract with unprecedented product and investment commitments.

With the protection of U.S. manufacturing jobs at the top of the union's bargaining agenda, UAW negotiators insisted on - and won - solid pledges from GM to build specific products in specific plants.

GM also agreed to a moratorium on outsourcing, a pledge to insource more than 3,000 UAW jobs and a commitment to hire 3,000 temporary workers as permanent GM employees.

"For too many years, America has stood idly by while industries moved overseas," said UAW President Ron Gettelfinger. "U.S. autoworkers made a decision: We were fighting for U.S. auto jobs. We made progress at GM, and we're going to continue to advocate for a strong U.S. manufacturing sector."

The tentative agreement, reached at 3:05 a.m. Sept. 26, delivers solid economic gains for active and retired members, despite repeated attempts by GM to impose harsh takeaways

The agreement will deliver more than $13,000 in economic gains for a typical UAW member, including a $3,000 signing bonus, two 3 percent lump sums and a 4 percent lump sum.

Active workers will see their comprehensive health care coverage continue, with dental, hearing and other benefits improved. Retired workers will have their health benefits secured by a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association (VEBA), prefunded by GM with $29.9 billion in cash and other assets. The fund can only be used to pay retiree health benefits, and will remain solvent for decades regardless of the financial condition of GM.

The proposed contract will also deliver benefits to current and future retirees, with four lump-sum payments for current retirees, and a raise in basic benefit rates, the 30-and-out supplement, temporary and interim benefits for future retirees.

The company came into these talks looking to shred our contract to pieces," said UAW Vice President Cal Rapson, who directs the UAW GM Department.

"But you can't tear apart a group that stands together the way UAW members do."
The new agreement also requires contributions from active UAW members to benefit retirees, and an adjustment in wage schedules to encourage new hiring at GM.Resources that would have gone to a general wage increase for active workers will instead be used to contribute to the VEBA to fund retiree health care benefits, and GM will have the right to hire entry-level workers at a lower wage rate for certain "non-core" operations.

"We're dealing with the realities of a highly competitive industry that does not operate on a level playing field," said Rapson. "We've negotiated a realistic agreement that protects existing manufacturing jobs, and also creates the possibility for future growth."
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
When Ford's "Third and final Last Chance" lived up to it's nickname "Exploder", I remember standing next to it with yet another door handle broken off in my hand and saying "No more, these things are junk." Now, three Toyotas later, we couldn't be happier with our cars.

Looking down at that cheap-*ss broken peice of metal in my hand I could only think that Ford HAD to use the cheapest parts they could find what with the Unions and their ridiculously overpaid managment sucking every penny of profit out of the company.

Sadly I say "Let 'em sink", they did this to themselves. I gave them three chances before I bailed!!!
 

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Guys,I sure don't agree with how the Big Three have been doing Business or building Cars.They have finally achieved quality in their vehicles.Its a shame its a little too late in doing so.1 in 10 Jobs in this country are related to the Car Biz.
Those of you that have "Other" Jobs ,a Salary.Retirement or such,Easy for you to say to let them die!

Unfortunately,I am part of the Fallout going on,Been in the Car Business for 30+ years.My pay has decreased by 60% in 3 months!!!!!!I'm HURTIN!Not to mention my 401K thats Tanked.Its all I have for a "Retirement".Yea, Yea.I could have not chosen that profession, or something like that.Its a little too late in my Life to start over.Not cryin' about it,it is what it is!I'll do the very best I can,its all I can do.BUT,There are a whole lot of people in the same situation and things or confidence are NOT getting any better.

I would bet if the "Big Three" go down....We WILL see a Depression,if we are'nt already seeing a taste of it.So be carefull what ya' wish for.[Mike]
 

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It's just mind boggeling how greedy CEO's & the UAW are, most of these union workers went on strike to demand outrageous benefits they get & now want the rest of us to bail them out..........guess they better learn to live on less like the rest of us.
 

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I have little sympathy for the big 3.

Don't you find it interesting that the plants down south (Honda, Toyota, Kia and Hyundai) are not standing line with their hands out? Between them they make 54% of the automobiles sold in the US and employ 1/3 of the county's auto workers. Why are they not standing in line looking for handouts?

If the big 3 not been so greedy and focused on long term viability instead of exploiting the demand for the highly profitable gas guzzlers they wouldn't be in this situation.
But that has been the principle difference between Eastern and Western business strategies, and philosophies. Americans (as a whole- individually, and collectively) have always been concerned with the short term gain. Oriental companies have been the ones looking 25-50 years down the road... ( the old next fiscal quarter vs next quarter century type thing) and it just so happens that we are living in a time where we are starting to see the value of how profitable the Eastern philosophy really is.

That said- I say let them file (and the rest of these companies as well), offer no severance packages for executives (no sense in them keeping their jobs... they are what screwed this particular pooch), force these companies to operate within a real budget, and am I the only one who doesnt understand the need to Unionized labor anymore? I am in the construction industry, and am a site superintendent... and what I generally see from union guys is very slow, although mostly very good quality work, but they completely lack efficiency (sorry to offend, but these are my observations), they refuse to operate outside of their schedules, and take more breaks than my 85 year old grandmother. In an 8 hour day, I might get 5 hours of work, and when compared to another non-union crew of the same size doing the same thing, its really comparable to about a 3 hour work day. My point is this- if my experiences in the field are indicative of the gross inefficiencies of the UAW- why are they still doing the job (and please dont turn this into a political thing).
 
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